Ai

[sunshiner]

first off a little quote from the recent rewiev: Mob AI, for example, is so wacky sometimes that I ended up too frustrated to try to kill things. It shouldn't be surprising that gaining combat skills by killing mobs is a pretty common activity, but I simply had to put it to the side before I pulled my hair out. Pigs or deer would run off, come back to fight me, or just walk away without ever responding to my hits. Often the mobs would fade into the ground or would disappear, only to appear yards away, bucking and going through combat animations. It was more than frustrating and fell into the "pathetic" category at times. I'd even go so far as to say that half of my time spent in combat was spent attempting to fight a bugged-out mob.


extra quote: Friendly NPC AI was just plain silly. Pretty much every guard or moving NPC I came across would suddenly start to run, then stop and finally turn around to do it all again.

thats a rewiev made after a patch that was supposed to deliver us the: Mortal online's new AI is one that is sure to surprise you, with incredible features never yet seen in an MMORPG

this leaves me with one question, is there some/a bug with the AI that is stopping SV from adding all this new behavior, or did it simply proove to hard to finish on time? Or is it actually there but just really full of bugs, and the last one: why aint there any trolls picking up and eating people? =(


dont take this as a flame or rant, i would just simply like to know seing as its understanderble(spelled?) if it simply prooved to hard or something.

 

[HSDrac011]

i agree, i actually am not playing the game again until its actually fixed, i was giving it chances ever since release, but im just fed up with the AI at this point, and wont be back to the game for at LEAST 8 months, at most would be never. regardless if they say in patch notes "AI fixed".. im pretty sure 3-4 of the patch notes had "fixed issues with AI" and they werent fixed at all when the patch went live.

Just my 2 cents and my opinion, you can disagree with me if you want and even rate my post with dislike or disagree, i just dont give a dang anymore.

 

[aramsm]

I got tired and is countless my posts about AI. For as I see stuffs in MO, when they change something this something get bugged... as for AI staying the same Im going to say that they didnt touch it. So far, you can see that loots, damages and blocking (wich wasnt in the game before) were changed... and bugged or with issues, but mesh and pathfinding is the same, behavior didnt change too much or is the same.

They dont attach any response to any of my posts or any post talking about AI. They released a patch supposed to fix mobs getting into you, wich didnt, also the pets following wich is fixed now. If you look at forums activities you would say AI is fixed, because none of the staff talk about it or ask about it. Instead, they are worry to balance weapons, not that this is not important, but AI is the most important thing in a mmoRPG and that was the objective of Awakenning, and not bringging us weapons and balances.

Im still waiting for them ask us feedback and really look into it like weapons. Still waiting for focused only on AI patches.

 

[Incarnadine]

This is a legit concern... We keep hearing about mobs being fixed, but when they obviously aren't, we don't get an update of "Well THIS was wrong, we're working on it." We just sorta sit here with silly looking stares wondering wtf is going on

 

[Bernajo]

I am still waiting for the roving herds. I looked forward to the idea of people hunting down a herd and actually getting out and exploring. Another letdown.

 

[aramsm]

And I cant understand why we still dont have molvas back and why there is no Trolls.

 

[sunshiner]

glad to see im not the only one wondering about this, any chance of a dev response? Any answer is better then this, can only assume that without any statements this is how it was planned/meant to be =/

 

[Sebastian Persson]

OK one response to rule them all.

Q: OMG Why AI run away then come back LOL:
A: AI has issues, the "run away then come back" is a bug, the fail fear check, flee but something doesn't clear good enough and they decide to come back.

Q: ZOMG Why u no make troll and add? U had all dem grafix!
A: We do have the troll, it does have all the graphics and animations. But we want it to pick you up. And doing requires code, a fair amount of code. Similar to how some ai now can spawn other ai we need a new type of behavior for these attacks. But this new type of behavior for the troll can currently ONLY be used by the troll while spawning other mobs can be used by a wide amount of other creatures.

Q: I want them molvas back plz ktnxbie.
A: Molvas are awesome! BUT, if we re-add them we want them as mounts, and mounts take some time to add due to the fact that they need to follow the same system as horses. This means that once we add molvas we get a good 5-7 different movlas but it's more complicated then just "re-add" them. They need to have their rigg re-rigged in such a way that it can be used by the dynamic system.

Q: You said AI would do cool stuff, all they do is hit me in the face with a claw!
A: This is more or less just time, the AI can do a lot of cool things with the new system but the mobs we have are mostly furry things with sharp nails. In wow you could have a pig that charges,hits you and you catch fire. This.. is something we want to stay away from. We will be looking into making the mobs that can have more interesting things to do more interesting. Say witches that raise skeletons, elements that put down "tower" type of things etc.

Q: Why you LIE and say you fix it when U did not NOOBSEB!
A: I did! Every note in the patchnotes about changes to the AI is indeed a improvement, it's just been a bunch of fairly minor improvements rather then one giant "this fixed all" type of deal. For the next patch I have for the first time some real time to put into the AI and I should be able to tick of a lot of "minor improvements" that hopefully makes the experience better for you.

Q: But WTF did you do with that time Seb, I heard you just drank whiskey and watched the Sin City movie over and over again.
A: All AI was scrapped and I started from nothing again. These were my main goals:
1.Give the client more time to handle movement to make it look better.
2.Give the designer more variety in what attacks each mob can do.
3.Add patrolling and make every NPC an AI too.
4.Add support for several pets and build a more solid system to control them with.

And all of this did indeed get made, its the polish that still needs to be there, the client part of movement can be made a lot better and after that it can be polished infidelity.
The attacks can be made, but we don't use them to well yet. Patroling NPCs are in, and one of the reasons why we can now have the guards instead of the old insta-wack guards.
Several pets are in and the new control system is better and gives GMs the ability to directly control the ai for events etc.


XOXOX / The seb

 

[Hertix]

OK one response to rule them all.

Q: OMG Why AI run away then come back LOL:
A: AI has issues, the "run away then come back" is a bug, the fail fear check, flee but something doesn't clear good enough and they decide to come back.

Q: ZOMG Why u no make troll and add? U had all dem grafix!
A: We do have the troll, it does have all the graphics and animations. But we want it to pick you up. And doing requires code, a fair amount of code. Similar to how some ai now can spawn other ai we need a new type of behavior for these attacks. But this new type of behavior for the troll can currently ONLY be used by the troll while spawning other mobs can be used by a wide amount of other creatures.

Q: I want them molvas back plz ktnxbie.
A: Molvas are awesome! BUT, if we re-add them we want them as mounts, and mounts take some time to add due to the fact that they need to follow the same system as horses. This means that once we add molvas we get a good 5-7 different movlas but it's more complicated then just "re-add" them. They need to have their rigg re-rigged in such a way that it can be used by the dynamic system.

Q: You said AI would do cool stuff, all they do is hit me in the face with a claw!
A: This is more or less just time, the AI can do a lot of cool things with the new system but the mobs we have are mostly furry things with sharp nails. In wow you could have a pig that charges,hits you and you catch fire. This.. is something we want to stay away from. We will be looking into making the mobs that can have more interesting things to do more interesting. Say witches that raise skeletons, elements that put down "tower" type of things etc.

Q: Why you LIE and say you fix it when U did not NOOBSEB!
A: I did! Every note in the patchnotes about changes to the AI is indeed a improvement, it's just been a bunch of fairly minor improvements rather then one giant "this fixed all" type of deal. For the next patch I have for the first time some real time to put into the AI and I should be able to tick of a lot of "minor improvements" that hopefully makes the experience better for you.

Q: But WTF did you do with that time Seb, I heard you just drank whiskey and watched the Sin City movie over and over again.
A: All AI was scrapped and I started from nothing again. These were my main goals:
1.Give the client more time to handle movement to make it look better.
2.Give the designer more variety in what attacks each mob can do.
3.Add patrolling and make every NPC an AI too.
4.Add support for several pets and build a more solid system to control them with.

And all of this did indeed get made, its the polish that still needs to be there, the client part of movement can be made a lot better and after that it can be polished infidelity.
The attacks can be made, but we don't use them to well yet. Patroling NPCs are in, and one of the reasons why we can now have the guards instead of the old insta-wack guards.
Several pets are in and the new control system is better and gives GMs the ability to directly control the ai for events etc.


XOXOX / The seb

These are not the main issues people are having with AI. It might be "client movement" but it is very far from just needing minor improvements. Mobs are going underground and attacking people, rocketing around at mach speeds, falling from the sky, not playing proper animations for what they are doing, running in odd directions (not just away), failing to aggro or attack correct targets, stalling and not doing anything, pathing horribly in some areas, and thats just from the top of my head. Yes of course I would like to see more design in mob placement and attacks, but the REAL issues right now are the game-breaking things, not polish.

 

[ltankhsd]

OK one response to rule them all.

Q: OMG Why AI run away then come back LOL:
A: AI has issues, the "run away then come back" is a bug, the fail fear check, flee but something doesn't clear good enough and they decide to come back.

Q: ZOMG Why u no make troll and add? U had all dem grafix!
A: We do have the troll, it does have all the graphics and animations. But we want it to pick you up. And doing requires code, a fair amount of code. Similar to how some ai now can spawn other ai we need a new type of behavior for these attacks. But this new type of behavior for the troll can currently ONLY be used by the troll while spawning other mobs can be used by a wide amount of other creatures.

Q: I want them molvas back plz ktnxbie.
A: Molvas are awesome! BUT, if we re-add them we want them as mounts, and mounts take some time to add due to the fact that they need to follow the same system as horses. This means that once we add molvas we get a good 5-7 different movlas but it's more complicated then just "re-add" them. They need to have their rigg re-rigged in such a way that it can be used by the dynamic system.

Q: You said AI would do cool stuff, all they do is hit me in the face with a claw!
A: This is more or less just time, the AI can do a lot of cool things with the new system but the mobs we have are mostly furry things with sharp nails. In wow you could have a pig that charges,hits you and you catch fire. This.. is something we want to stay away from. We will be looking into making the mobs that can have more interesting things to do more interesting. Say witches that raise skeletons, elements that put down "tower" type of things etc.

Q: Why you LIE and say you fix it when U did not NOOBSEB!
A: I did! Every note in the patchnotes about changes to the AI is indeed a improvement, it's just been a bunch of fairly minor improvements rather then one giant "this fixed all" type of deal. For the next patch I have for the first time some real time to put into the AI and I should be able to tick of a lot of "minor improvements" that hopefully makes the experience better for you.

Q: But WTF did you do with that time Seb, I heard you just drank whiskey and watched the Sin City movie over and over again.
A: All AI was scrapped and I started from nothing again. These were my main goals:
1.Give the client more time to handle movement to make it look better.
2.Give the designer more variety in what attacks each mob can do.
3.Add patrolling and make every NPC an AI too.
4.Add support for several pets and build a more solid system to control them with.

And all of this did indeed get made, its the polish that still needs to be there, the client part of movement can be made a lot better and after that it can be polished infidelity.
The attacks can be made, but we don't use them to well yet. Patroling NPCs are in, and one of the reasons why we can now have the guards instead of the old insta-wack guards.
Several pets are in and the new control system is better and gives GMs the ability to directly control the ai for events etc.


XOXOX / The seb

Thanks for the answers Seb. In my personal opinion I hope you all are devoting most of your resources at SV to further developing the AI (and subsequently the loot they drop) over any other system in game such as the complaints about butchery and ghost scouting. I know some people would disagree but I think an alive world with working AI and a wide variety of interesting monsters (and loot) is what would keep more people and bring more people to the game.

 

[Sebastian Persson]

These are not the main issues people are having with AI. It might be "client movement" but it is very far from just needing minor improvements. Mobs are going underground and attacking people, rocketing around at mach speeds, falling from the sky, not playing proper animations for what they are doing, running in odd directions (not just away), failing to aggro or attack correct targets, stalling and not doing anything, pathing horribly in some areas, and thats just from the top of my head. Yes of course I would like to see more design in mob placement and attacks, but the REAL issues right now are the game-breaking things, not polish.

OK all of that movement stuff is client movement.
This I would like too know more about:

Failing to aggro correct target - Could you explain?
Pathing horribly - We need to know WHERE these areas are because this stuff is caused by bad navmesh and can be fixed once we know.
Not playing proper animations for what they are doing - When?

Also is this from a tamer or just roaming mobs?

 

[Mas]

bring back old mount movements....................its not fun anymore

 

[Sarkhan]

I hope most of what you are describing, will simply be fixed through the process of Mr. Seb 'the dev' implementing the fixes he was writing. But thats just what I'm hoping for.

Obviously they are aware of the issues, I have a feeling most will be ironed out through the process of fixing AI. At the same time, good to point out the things that you feel are most wrong with AI, and what everyone else thinks is wrong as well.

EDIT: From my experience, its with roaming mobs. The pigs right outside of Meduli will disappear into the ground when fighting them, or reappear far away from you, and like Beau said, bucking in combat animations when not near you, but in 'combat' with you. Sometimes when you hit them, they just ignore you and keep walking away, slowly. Most times the small pigs will run away, do that fear/flight check thing you were talking about, but the 'mature' pigs will just stare at you, then walk off while you're fighting them.

 

[Xhodan Xeus]

OK one response to rule them all.

Q: OMG Why AI run away then come back LOL:
A: AI has issues, the "run away then come back" is a bug, the fail fear check, flee but something doesn't clear good enough and they decide to come back.

Q: ZOMG Why u no make troll and add? U had all dem grafix!
A: We do have the troll, it does have all the graphics and animations. But we want it to pick you up. And doing requires code, a fair amount of code. Similar to how some ai now can spawn other ai we need a new type of behavior for these attacks. But this new type of behavior for the troll can currently ONLY be used by the troll while spawning other mobs can be used by a wide amount of other creatures.

Q: I want them molvas back plz ktnxbie.
A: Molvas are awesome! BUT, if we re-add them we want them as mounts, and mounts take some time to add due to the fact that they need to follow the same system as horses. This means that once we add molvas we get a good 5-7 different movlas but it's more complicated then just "re-add" them. They need to have their rigg re-rigged in such a way that it can be used by the dynamic system.

Q: You said AI would do cool stuff, all they do is hit me in the face with a claw!
A: This is more or less just time, the AI can do a lot of cool things with the new system but the mobs we have are mostly furry things with sharp nails. In wow you could have a pig that charges,hits you and you catch fire. This.. is something we want to stay away from. We will be looking into making the mobs that can have more interesting things to do more interesting. Say witches that raise skeletons, elements that put down "tower" type of things etc.

Q: Why you LIE and say you fix it when U did not NOOBSEB!
A: I did! Every note in the patchnotes about changes to the AI is indeed a improvement, it's just been a bunch of fairly minor improvements rather then one giant "this fixed all" type of deal. For the next patch I have for the first time some real time to put into the AI and I should be able to tick of a lot of "minor improvements" that hopefully makes the experience better for you.

Q: But WTF did you do with that time Seb, I heard you just drank whiskey and watched the Sin City movie over and over again.
A: All AI was scrapped and I started from nothing again. These were my main goals:
1.Give the client more time to handle movement to make it look better.
2.Give the designer more variety in what attacks each mob can do.
3.Add patrolling and make every NPC an AI too.
4.Add support for several pets and build a more solid system to control them with.

And all of this did indeed get made, its the polish that still needs to be there, the client part of movement can be made a lot better and after that it can be polished infidelity.
The attacks can be made, but we don't use them to well yet. Patroling NPCs are in, and one of the reasons why we can now have the guards instead of the old insta-wack guards.
Several pets are in and the new control system is better and gives GMs the ability to directly control the ai for events etc.


XOXOX / The seb

As a pet pvp and pve user i hope you can and will answer my question since all my pvp toons are based on having a pet in combat. When do you think we can acctualy use pets in combat im sure you know if not i will explain fast
If you command your pet to attack he will try maybe 2x and than just give up. If the person or mob is a bit far away he wont even reach him and just stands still or comes back. Now if the mob or person acctualy moves well than its even worse they dnt seem to be able to hit at all and will stop.

Also my high level alien ant and white bear keep running away from a small little pig. Damn beasts are totaly scared of a puny pig!

Can we see a fix soon or is this for sv a major issue and is put on hold?
Cause i believe its a real major issue with no fix pets are usless noone will by them for pvp which makes the taming class useless except for getting horses maybe

 

[Hertix]

OK all of that movement stuff is client movement.
This I would like too know more about:

Failing to aggro correct target - Could you explain?
Pathing horribly - We need to know WHERE these areas are because this stuff is caused by bad navmesh and can be fixed once we know.
Not playing proper animations for what they are doing - When?

Also is this from a tamer or just roaming mobs?

I wanted to make a video capturing all of this, and I might do that right now, I encourage others to try and get some footage as well. While I have you here I can tell you Koto was having trouble with Minotaurs attacking through the floor over at huergar cave, and something that is hard to capture is that actual other players will completely dissappear from your screen, and I believe this to be prediction placing them beneath the terrain. Mounted players are having this issue a lot as well. Let me get some video for you.

 

[Sebastian Persson]

As a pet pvp and pve user i hope you can and will answer my question since all my pvp toons are based on having a pet in combat. When do you think we can acctualy use pets in combat im sure you know if not i will explain fast
If you command your pet to attack he will try maybe 2x and than just give up. If the person or mob is a bit far away he wont even reach him and just stands still or comes back. Now if the mob or person acctualy moves well than its even worse they dnt seem to be able to hit at all and will stop.

Also my high level alien ant and white bear keep running away from a small little pig. Damn beasts are totaly scared of a puny pig!

Can we see a fix soon or is this for sv a major issue and is put on hold?
Cause i believe its a real major issue with no fix pets are usless noone will by them for pvp which makes the taming class useless except for getting horses maybe

Ok, I have been doing AI fixes today and the main thing that changed was their follow behavior when attacking, it's rewritten and a separate type of movement to make them feel a lot more aggressive. Pretty much they get to update their positions more often and have a new intercept-algorithm that should make a difference when they attack players that run away.
The give up thing is either 1. Him giving up due to missing to much in that case it has been fixed in next patch or 2. He lost aggro, I'll make it so that pets lose aggro a lot slower that should sort it I think.

I'll take a look at the fear thing for you too.

 

[Darran]

Seb. I posted this lil after awakening release: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/threads/what-do-you-want-from-pve.78000/page-8#post-1359218

The current AI is not much better from what the AI used to be, it still has the major flaws why old AI was bad.

1. NPC's going inside you. Its stupid SV still hasn't fixed this, it was one of the biggest issues with old AI, and now its eaven worse. Before the AI just went inside you and you could walk out, now you get stuck inside them or start bouncing on top of their head.

2. NPC's going trought walls. This was one of the biggest issues with old AI as well, they made it better now that the NPC's dont get stuck to meshes and hit you while invisible, they just run trought.

3. NPC's hitting trought walls. This still happens, I don't know why they cant make LOS check for the AI so they wont shoot/hit you if there is something between you.

4. NPC's hitting you from far away. This was one of the biggest issues with old AI as well, it was made better but still happens all the time. The AI stops like 4 meters away from you and hits in the air, and you get hit. Now that you bounce back when AI hits you its fucking stupid you get hit from 4 meters away, bounce back 1 meter and then have to sprint few seconds to get near the NPC to be able to hit it.

5. NPC's going inside each other. How the hell you still haven't fixed this? Its eaven worse now that the NPC's glitch inside each other get teleported out go inside again and repeat this.

6. NPC's hitting you while looking the other way. Its stupid how NPCs look away from you, and shoot or hit you. Was happening with old AI and hasnt changed with the new AI.

These issues, and the AI might actually be called better than the old one was. How I see AI now is its same as before, but not getting stuck to walls and attacking you invisible. Oh ye and it has few differend attacks..

I don't know what happens behind the scenes im not a programmer, but thats how it feels for a player.

1. Been improved slightly after i made my post
2. Still happens A LOT
3. Happens still, all the time
4. Happens still, often
5. Happens all the time
6. Happens all the time, you can go near bandits and guards where they fight each other at fab and its just bandits and guards both walking away from each other shooting each other while looking the other way

 

[Xhodan Xeus]

Ok, I have been doing AI fixes today and the main thing that changed was their follow behavior when attacking, it's rewritten and a separate type of movement to make them feel a lot more aggressive. Pretty much they get to update their positions more often and have a new intercept-algorithm that should make a difference when they attack players that run away.
The give up thing is either 1. Him giving up due to missing to much in that case it has been fixed in next patch or 2. He lost aggro, I'll make it so that pets lose aggro a lot slower that should sort it I think.

I'll take a look at the fear thing for you too.

Thank you i also will try to take a clip maybe after the patch if there are still major issues

 

[ltankhsd]

OK all of that movement stuff is client movement.
This I would like too know more about:

Failing to aggro correct target - Could you explain?
Pathing horribly - We need to know WHERE these areas are because this stuff is caused by bad navmesh and can be fixed once we know.
Not playing proper animations for what they are doing - When?

Also is this from a tamer or just roaming mobs?

I can chime in here a bit.

Bandits:
There are bandits near Meduli towards that large granum rock. Sometimes they fail to aggro. Sometimes they don't aggro until you hit them. Sometimes you hit them and they instantly take off running super speed in some random direction. Sometimes they bounce up and down while they are moving. Sometimes they teleport around. These I assume are all dealing with Navmesh.

Also sometimes you will see bandits in a location but when you approach they disappear. I also see bandits sometime on the hill behind the Meduli graveyard. I think the location I see these phantom bandits at is a Node line and the same nodeline running through both locations which is causing issues.

As for animations, I certainly sometimes see bandits blocking while holding their bow or swinging with their bow. It does seem like bandits blocking without having a blocking animation has been fixed.

Walking Dead:
For the most part I don't bother with normal walking dead since thier loot is terrible and noth worth my time. Some normal walking dead ignore me, some attack me. I assume they are considering how dangerous I am an making a decision on whether to attack.

The rare walking dead however always aggro. The thing about them is that their pathing is really weird. The most effective way I have found to fight them with the smallest risk to me is to use mounted combar to attack them, drag them out of the graveyard and then basically joust them outside. It seems like their pathing lags so far behind my movements that they cannot catch up to me to hit me and even after I turn around or change directions they still follow the direction I was just on instead of the one I am one currently. As such the only one of the rares that ever poses a threat is the Walking Dead Soldier with his ranged Acid attack. By the way that attack needs a better animation since it just looks like a punch and there is no particle effect letting you know what he is doing like guards and thunderlashes. I also think the acid is a bit too strong.

Megnatons:
I haven't messed with these too much. I did however go to the Desert Horse spawn and while taming horses I came across a few that were really crappy in stats so I tried to sic the horse on a Megnaton. When the horse went up and attacked the Megnaton would just run like a bat out of hell faster than the horse continuing on its path so that they would never actually fight. The horse not being able to catch up would lose aggro and just stand there. I tried this several times and was never able to initiate a fight.

Navmesh/Pathing near Bakti:
A week or so ago I had a lvl 100 Wolf I was bringing to Bakti. Unfortunately while following me between the river and the hillside just before you approach the Bakti graveyard my pet got lost somehow. Pressing K would so no pet listed. I backtracked some and was able to get a generic pet entry to list but I could not quite get the wolf to appear when I used the follow key. Eventually by doing a grid pattern search I was able to get him back only to lose him again a little farther ahead. Logging out and in did not help. Eventually I logged out and stayed out for awhile and he was back when I logged back in.

I don't know if the wolf just pathed into some random direction really far off or if he fell through the world. Unfortunately as I finally approached Bakti after that ordeal the Walking Dead Soldier happened to be outside the game and decided to blow up my wolf.

 

[Darran]

Oh ye, and it seems pets disappear from your pet window if you cross a nodeline and they don't follow you quick enough or something. I've lost many horses while crossing nodelines, they simply disappear.

Chain knockdown! Stupid. NPC knocks you down once, you rise from the ground but can't do anything and will just see "knocked down" timer going over and over again in your screen.