Changelog - (Dawn Expansion) Version 1.50.00.00

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Duchy of Wessex already uses both of the suggestions you described above, our garrison members pay an optional tax, along with our regular members and are supplied with standard issue weapons and armor to use in combat. All garrison members that regularly pay tax do not have to worry about losing armor sets occasionally (unless there is excessive loss). This tax allows us to provide armor sets to garrison members, who in turn are used to protect other guild members during events and special circumstances such as valuable material transport and house deed runs. The tax money is also used to build housing and other necessities for guild members to use.
I'm very glad to hear that. I take it this system works very well for your guild? How do your garrison members like it? And your regular players? What kind of Tax is it, one-time, or regular?

If more guilds were to do this, I think their PVPers wouldn't be quite so bored and frustrated with the "money grind."
 
Originally Posted by Jacen Olliard

Duchy of Wessex already uses both of the suggestions you described above, our garrison members pay an optional tax, along with our regular members and are supplied with standard issue weapons and armor to use in combat. All garrison members that regularly pay tax do not have to worry about losing armor sets occasionally (unless there is excessive loss). This tax allows us to provide armor sets to garrison members, who in turn are used to protect other guild members during events and special circumstances such as valuable material transport and house deed runs. The tax money is also used to build housing and other necessities for guild members to use.

I'm very glad to hear that. I take it this system works very well for your guild? How do your garrison members like it? And your regular players? What kind of Tax is it, one-time, or regular?

If more guilds were to do this, I think their PVPers wouldn't be quite so bored and frustrated with the "money grind."
This actually points out very well why serious game changes are required to bring about your ideas aka creating a real role for warriors within guilds and the game in general. The entire situation here is backwards according to what you stated (guilds paying wages to warriors and levying taxes to do it). From what Jacen is saying, Garrison members aren't paid wages....just the opposite in addition to their duties they are also expected to pay a tax for supplies. This isn't a dig at Wessex either, that arrangement just reflects the reality of the game right now: There's no real economic or game incentive for guilds to maintain and pay a serious armed force of professional soldiers.

Non-combatants in MO right now have very little economic reason to fund seiges, wars of conquest or standing armies. Which means by and large it doesn't happen, on top of this most guilds don't have the spare resources to fund soldiers in the first place. All these produce a situation where the main dedicated somewhat profitable role for warriors is RPKing.

It's going to take fleshed out economically meaningful territory control, more contested resources and re-assessment of associated costs (keeps, seige costs, metal making times) to create a world with consistent and meaningful warfare. Also the ability to conquer rather then destroy assets. Looking at the game right now, there's plenty of guilds holding keeps that don't have any real military force to speak of. These keeps are protected by the immense cost and boulder hauling grind of sieges combined with the lack of actual gain for conquering a keep. Wars still happen, not often though or for economically meaningful reasons - it's either ambition to conquer for it's own sake or a grudge match.
 
This actually points out very well why serious game changes are required to bring about your ideas aka creating a real role for warriors within guilds and the game in general. The entire situation here is backwards according to what you stated (guilds paying wages to warriors and levying taxes to do it). From what Jacen is saying, Garrison members aren't paid wages....just the opposite in addition to their duties they are also expected to pay a tax for supplies. This isn't a dig at Wessex either, that arrangement just reflects the reality of the game right now: There's no real economic or game incentive for guilds to maintain and pay a serious armed force of professional soldiers.
Hmm, you're right, I must have misread what he said there. I specifically said the guild levies a tax on those inside their influence (what I meant was nonguild members, and non-combat guild members), and then uses that tax to pay a salary to their guild members, particularly their military, and possibly also supply them with standard gear. I got mislead by him saying the tax on the garrison was optional, and missed the part where only those who paid received the benefits.

My whole point was to create a stable "job" the garrison members could have that paid them so they didn't have to go PKing or money grinding to be able to afford supplies.

Non-combatants in MO right now have very little economic reason to fund seiges, wars of conquest or standing armies. Which means by and large it doesn't happen, on top of this most guilds don't have the spare resources to fund soldiers in the first place. All these produce a situation where the main dedicated somewhat profitable role for warriors is RPKing.
You make a very valid point. While I agree much of the blame falls on the mechanics of the game as they stand today (better territory control would probably change things). There is still one mechanic in the game which would give non-combatants a reason to fund combatants. Open full loot PVP.
However that doesn't seem to be enough. Either that or the players don't understand how to organize.

It's going to take fleshed out economically meaningful territory control, more contested resources and re-assessment of associated costs (keeps, seige costs, metal making times) to create a world with consistent and meaningful warfare. Also the ability to conquer rather then destroy assets. Looking at the game right now, there's plenty of guilds holding keeps that don't have any real military force to speak of. These keeps are protected by the immense cost and boulder hauling grind of sieges combined with the lack of actual gain for conquering a keep. Wars still happen, not often though or for economically meaningful reasons - it's either ambition to conquer for it's own sake or a grudge match.
I have to agree with you here. More painful death would also help a bit, giving non-combatants a reason to pay for protection from PKs, instead of just "dealing with it, and/or complaining about getting Pked.

But even with it all, we'll need to have innovative leaders to start organizing the populace to facilitate military use.
 

TheMap

Cronite Supporter
I have to agree with you here. More painful death would also help a bit, giving non-combatants a reason to pay for protection from PKs, instead of just "dealing with it, and/or complaining about getting Pked.
Yes thats all we need is more stat loss and weight loss and hours of recouping from dying. /sarcasm

The current pvp system is already harsh enough towards reds and pks. This solution is a very biased one at best. How about more rewards to pk, bounties for heads available per guild members circles, open bounties in cities.
 
My whole point was to create a stable "job" the garrison members could have that paid them so they didn't have to go PKing or money grinding to be able to afford supplies.
You make a very valid point. While I agree much of the blame falls on the mechanics of the game as they stand today (better territory control would probably change things). There is still one mechanic in the game which would give non-combatants a reason to fund combatants. Open full loot PVP.
However that doesn't seem to be enough. Either that or the players don't understand how to organize.
I have to agree with you here. More painful death would also help a bit, giving non-combatants a reason to pay for protection from PKs, instead of just "dealing with it, and/or complaining about getting Pked.
But even with it all, we'll need to have innovative leaders to start organizing the populace to facilitate military use.
Again the biggest problem is lack of economic incentive to be serious about PVP and gearing up or hiring protection. The leading means for players to make money right now is naked taming of campadons, wisents and shore prowlers - they risk nothing so why pay for protection? It's basically the same problem as at the guild/territory level, the game rewards grinding instead of risk or skill. I mean really, making money in this game requires even less thought then it does in WOW.

The way to fix this is ultimately making rewards in the game risk and skill based. Tamers in particular should need expensive food or tools to go after creatures of great size/value like shore prowlers or campadons. Meaning they'd either want to arm themselves or bring protection rather then running around naked. Death penalties won't really help given the lack of attributes required for naked taming to begin with. Or better still, actually killing more dangerous creatures and running dungeons should be worth more then campadon taming.

There's another problem which is the vast amount of player labor associated with gearing up for PVP. Miner/refiner I've talked to estimate about 1.25 hours to make a stack of steel including all steps under optimal circumstances - start multiplying by quite a bit if you're talking tungsteel or cronite. One stack is enough for one heavy weapon, not even a suit of steel armor. Considering other factors (food, potions, mounts) I'd say you're looking at a couple of hours of "player labor" easily gearing up one fighter. Now multiply that for an entire group....and consider how fast your guild just learning to pvp is going to die against experienced PVPers (based on experience they will probably wipe quite a few times). Solution here I'd say is either/or cutting the amount of ore needed to produce metal, or cutting the length of the extraction timer.

So given the lack of economic incentive on any level (territorial or day to day grinding) the average guild has to pursue PVP combined with the high cost of doing so I don't think it's surprising you see people sitting in the guard zone complaining about PKers instead of seriously training to do something about it.
 
Yes thats all we need is more stat loss and weight loss and hours of recouping from dying. /sarcasm

The current pvp system is already harsh enough towards reds and pks. This solution is a very biased one at best. How about more rewards to pk, bounties for heads available per guild members circles, open bounties in cities.
Yes, actually that is what we need. Players need to be scared of dieing, or at least, avoid death at all costs. While I agree death shouldn't just end up as an annoyance, it should have some greater significance.
"More" Statloss and weightloss does not have to be the reason, but the effect should be essentially the same (avoidance of death).

Again the biggest problem is lack of economic incentive to be serious about PVP and gearing up or hiring protection. The leading means for players to make money right now is naked taming of campadons, wisents and shore prowlers - they risk nothing so why pay for protection? It's basically the same problem as at the guild/territory level, the game rewards grinding instead of risk or skill. I mean really, making money in this game requires even less thought then it does in WOW.

The way to fix this is ultimately making rewards in the game risk and skill based. Tamers in particular should need expensive food or tools to go after creatures of great size/value like shore prowlers or campadons. Meaning they'd either want to arm themselves or bring protection rather then running around naked. Death penalties won't really help given the lack of attributes required for naked taming to begin with. Or better still, actually killing more dangerous creatures and running dungeons should be worth more then campadon taming.

So given the lack of economic incentive on any level (territorial or day to day grinding) the average guild has to pursue PVP combined with the high cost of doing so I don't think it's surprising you see people sitting in the guard zone complaining about PKers instead of seriously training to do something about it.
I completely agree here.
I'll not comment on the mining/extracting quantities, or processing time though, I'm not sure what to do with that.
 

TheMap

Cronite Supporter
Yes, actually that is what we need. Players need to be scared of dieing, or at least, avoid death at all costs. While I agree death shouldn't just end up as an annoyance, it should have some greater significance.
"More" Statloss and weightloss does not have to be the reason, but the effect should be essentially the same (avoidance of death).
You do realize this is a 2 way street, it not only could affects reds and active pvpers it would also affect the crafters and carebears. Don't you think its already bad enough people lose everything they have and all reserves? There is much more important things then focusing on death mechanics to be more harsh. If you want perma death there is a few games out there that offer that. I suggest you check into those.
 
The major problem with a sandbox can best be illustrated by comparing the game with life on Earth.

It takes thousands, tens of thousands of people to make the social systems work well and allow for the specializations desired. It also takes 24 hour days.

Good luck getting there. The current implementation will more likely shrink the player base and the workday problem can only be solved by moving further away from 'realism.'
 
lot of interesting point on the lasts posts. But guys, you seems to forget there is people who want to play this game for fun, who are not having a big playtime /week. Today, the game is just fucking hardcore on everything. SV need to think about the core mechanics we need since the begening, and review the signification of the word Hardcore.

What we have now (and i'll try to don't talk about the unnaceptable bugs who make the game 100X more hardcore : farm without mount/donkey, archery became completly useless, etc) is a game completly anti new players.
Like said the last post by Kaideline, we don't only need tweaks on the system we have , we simply need the mechanics we want since the begening.

Yesterday, someone came on teamspeak ,representative of most part of his guildmates, and explained to me why they are leaving the game. Not only because of bugs ( who are really really a step backward IMO this time, cause they are affecting very more things) but because there is absolutly nothing except graphics to bring new players, to give enought fun to some players who don't want to spend 100000Hours learning the complicated mechanics of a game where the real needed mechanics are still far away from what we need, what we expected.
Sorry for my english. Today, more than every days since the begening of my MOcarrier, i have the feeling the game is loosing a huge part of his community.

Why? does i am the only one who feel it really smell shit ?
 
lot of interesting point on the lasts posts. But guys, you seems to forget there is people who want to play this game for fun, who are not having a big playtime /week. Today, the game is just fucking hardcore on everything. SV need to think about the core mechanics we need since the begening, and review the signification of the word Hardcore.

What we have now (and i'll try to don't talk about the unnaceptable bugs who make the game 100X more hardcore : farm without mount/donkey, archery became completly useless, etc) is a game completly anti new players.
Like said the last post by Kaideline, we don't only need tweaks on the system we have , we simply need the mechanics we want since the begening.

Yesterday, someone came on teamspeak ,representative of most part of his guildmates, and explained to me why they are leaving the game. Not only because of bugs ( who are really really a step backward IMO this time, cause they are affecting very more things) but because there is absolutly nothing except graphics to bring new players, to give enought fun to some players who don't want to spend 100000Hours learning the complicated mechanics of a game where the real needed mechanics are still far away from what we need, what we expected.
Sorry for my english. Today, more than every days since the begening of my MOcarrier, i have the feeling the game is loosing a huge part of his community.

Why? does i am the only one who feel it really smell shit ?
I'm sure some people are leaving due to the new complicated systems. Still, those same systems will attract another crowd, both new players wanting something hard and different, and old players that left because the game was basically a buggy PvP game and nothing more. Now that it's finally taking a major step towards the sandbox it was always meant to be, I think many of the impatient PvP junkies will leave, and the true sandbox fans will return/start playing.

There are many players out there who want a true gaming challenge - not only as in ffa PvP but as in a really complex virtual world where every action has consequences and there are multiple ways of going about your business. MO is still incomplete, unstable and buggy as hell, but after Dawn it really lacks competition when it comes to this kind of complexity.

People complaining about how hard and slow the game is now have to realize that MO never was intended as a fast-paced PvP arena. Stuff like butchery, cooking, hunger, etc was always planned - it was just delayed because of SV's incompetence and lack of resources, so a lot of players assumed that the game was "a PvP game" and nothing more. Now that it's finally becoming a sandbox game featuring PvP, those players will have to adapt, or just accept that MO is not for them anymore.
 
bataille, i think you miss my concern, but my english is shit and i 'm sorry if i can't really explain what i would to said. But i wasnt talking about only pvp players, but mainly about what we must have BEFORE havings thoses awesomes features like hunger system (i personnally love it and most players i read/heard are loving it too ,even if it need some tweaks) it seems SV just don't understand.

I know it is important that SV keep in mind what they wanna make with MO since the begening. But there is some facts man, there is some stuffs we can deal with, and some stuffs unnaceptable. I think it's my mainly concern. People are leaving cause they waited so much from this patch about , as example:
-fix about guilds
-fix about palissade/walls exploitation (you know you are still able to enter a house by a wall?)
-players made cities usefull
-no more things like : "ho i installed dawn, see my house chest, and saw i lost the 10K thungsteel i made, to have them replaced by 99cuprum coins)
-Not too much broken mechanics (so much broken than they are simply disabling mounts to fix it -i don't complain about they are fixing it, take my point)
-Archery system : wtf they have in mind to apply a patch with that kind of archery, really man, can you explain to me HOW IT IS POSSIBLE? i just can't to conceive they did it.
-No commercial gesture for the current unnacceptable state of the game
-My double billing for my monthly sub where i need, with my crappy english, to proof ,and anyway i'll don't have my money back, but maybe a freetime added for the next month, who's again unnaceptable (and i'll not talk about interests & IRLbank systems arround it)
-GM who even know what they have the right to do, or some GM giving you some information (example about new locations) and 2min after another GM will said "i can't give you this information)
-The thing they promised since the begening (crossbow, towershield...) and they are thinking we forget, they never give us a word about it, even EXCUSES
- The access list system...a joke

to resume,absolutly nothing was fixed with this patch(except some performance issue i must agree, good work here). A great system was added (hunger system) but too much system/mech needed are not here, or simply too much bugged to keep it ingame (mounts)
I think, as a fellow supporter since the 1day of the release, have real reasons to have some concern about the current state of the game, and have the right to be furious, even if i love MO as hell, even if i completly conceive the size of the team and the very nice work they already did. I think we have the right to complain today, and i understand why people are leaving the game, have lost them faith, definitivly for some ppl.

I can't be blamed for the fact i just wrote, everybody must be concerned
 
bataille, i think you miss my concern, but my english is shit and i 'm sorry if i can't really explain what i would to said. But i wasnt talking about only pvp players, but mainly about what we must have BEFORE havings thoses awesomes features like hunger system (i personnally love it and most players i read/heard are loving it too ,even if it need some tweaks) it seems SV just don't understand.

I know it is important that SV keep in mind what they wanna make with MO since the begening. But there is some facts man, there is some stuffs we can deal with, and some stuffs unnaceptable. I think it's my mainly concern. People are leaving cause they waited so much from this patch about , as example:
-fix about guilds
-fix about palissade/walls exploitation (you know you are still able to enter a house by a wall?)
-players made cities usefull
-no more things like : "ho i installed dawn, see my house chest, and saw i lost the 10K thungsteel i made, to have them replaced by 99cuprum coins)
-Not too much broken mechanics (so much broken than they are simply disabling mounts to fix it -i don't complain about they are fixing it, take my point)
-Archery system : wtf they have in mind to apply a patch with that kind of archery, really man, can you explain to me HOW IT IS POSSIBLE? i just can't to conceive they did it.
-No commercial gesture for the current unnacceptable state of the game
-My double billing for my monthly sub where i need, with my crappy english, to proof ,and anyway i'll don't have my money back, but maybe a freetime added for the next month, who's again unnaceptable (and i'll not talk about interests & IRLbank systems arround it)
-GM who even know what they have the right to do, or some GM giving you some information (example about new locations) and 2min after another GM will said "i can't give you this information)
-The thing they promised since the begening (crossbow, towershield...) and they are thinking we forget, they never give us a word about it, even EXCUSES
- The access list system...a joke

to resume,absolutly nothing was fixed with this patch(except some performance issue i must agree, good work here). A great system was added (hunger system) but too much system/mech needed are not here, or simply too much bugged to keep it ingame (mounts)
I think, as a fellow supporter since the 1day of the release, have real reasons to have some concern about the current state of the game, and have the right to be furious, even if i love MO as hell, even if i completly conceive the size of the team and the very nice work they already did. I think we have the right to complain today, and i understand why people are leaving the game, have lost them faith, definitivly for some ppl.

I can't be blamed for the fact i just wrote, everybody must be concerned
I feel your frustration, but are you really that surprised that SV releases a major patch - an expansion even - that has bugs and broken features? It's been like this since day one, you should have gotten used to it by now. Not saying it's ok, just that it's standard SV procedure. If it really pisses you off, the only solution is probably to take a break from the game, because this is not going to change I'm afraid.

As for the other stuff, well... same thing here. SV promises a lot, but their priorities change more often than I change my underwear (and I'm very keen on keeping my scrotum shiny, so I change them at least once a week). I'm personally dismayed that some stuff are not in yet - good AI, good GUI, actual house sharing, guard NPCs for keeps and palisades for example - but after all, they've introduced some other things that are truly outstanding, like hunger/cooking and the gene system.

I kind of ragequit back in February, I was so sick and tired of the game being broken and devoid of working content. I was also pretty sceptical about Dawn since it just seemed to add stuff that no one had asked for and not fix the stuff we wanted. I'm still not convinced that SV will pull it off, but I must say I'm pretty impressed with the level of complexity they've introduced with Dawn. The game is still very far from where it should be ideally, but the foundations for something very unique are being built. Given SV's limited resources I think they're doing pretty good.
 
Updates can be stressfull.Not only for players but allso for developers.Just think of all the hours we spend playing,developers spend just as much time fixing bugs makeing new content and so on.Just wait one day mortal may surpass all others mmos out there and your here now to see it through.

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I think they should of spent time on the AI/Roaming guards/UI/Banking between characters/Tindrem etc*. Now that would be amazing. You have to lay a good foundation before putting up the building.....
This is probably the best comment ive seen on the forums yet. I've been sayin this since beta....
 

Morwen

Trial Member
I think we should talk with the facts, and the facts are like 10 guildmates who have already left the game (ann no one has came back) and canceled the subs due to those big penalties with the hunger system.

MO hasnt enough player to make experiments, so, I dont know, but dont let the game die SV, its nice to make a very real game, but real is not always fun.
 

Lahuzer

Senior Member
I think we should talk with the facts, and the facts are like 10 guildmates who have already left the game (ann no one has came back) and canceled the subs due to those big penalties with the hunger system.

MO hasnt enough player to make experiments, so, I dont know, but dont let the game die SV, its nice to make a very real game, but real is not always fun.
The they should have eaten some. It´s not that hard. You can bie a nice Pig Pie at the grocers if you still haven´t learned how to cook. Lame excuss to leave MO. I think the hunger system brought even more sand to the box and MO is slowly but surely becoming the fantasy sandbox MMO I´ve always dreamed of.
 

Bazathar

Junior Member
The they should have eaten some. It´s not that hard. You can bie a nice Pig Pie at the grocers if you still haven´t learned how to cook. Lame excuss to leave MO. I think the hunger system brought even more sand to the box and MO is slowly but surely becoming the fantasy sandbox MMO I´ve always dreamed of.
Well a different view is that ya the hunger system is kinda cool and i dont mind eating, but to implement this over MUCH more needed content...i mean really thats kinda lame. I would much rather had this on the back burner and had better AI, Guild Systems, Better Territory systems, Fix combat systems, etc...list could go on forever. the hunger system just kinda feels lack luster when we needed so many more things first. I think this is what alot of people feel , rather than just "wow i dont like to hafta eat". But like i said while i dont agree with the way they implented the hunger/food system over much more needed stuff, its not my game, i just play it, so ill deal with w/e they dish in the game till i dont find it fun anymore.
 
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