Mats's Surviving Posts on Lore

Thread starter #1

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
I've done a bit of digging, and figured I might as well draw all of these posts up to the surface. The Sidoian one at the end interested me a lot. I haven't checked every single thread, so if you want to dig then by all means, share what you find!​
Actual Posts by Mats

Very observant of you. Tindrem and the Tindremic society in general are very inspired by Florence around the Renaissance, I'm sure you can find more parallels in the description of Tindrem ;)
I haven't forgotten you. I'll shed some more light on this counter-thing in the next few days. First I need some sleep though, as the last 100+ hour working week is taking its toll :eek:


I'll confirm the most important piece of information right now though:

The orrery in the background shows you that we are dealing with planets. It's in fact the Armillogion device, although not all of it is shown (which may have been confusing).

The letters that popped up formed a list of names with +'s after some of the names. It's the list of known planets in the MO world, and their moons, not to mention Sunna (the sun). Of course, you couldn't be sure that they were planets, but the orrery in the background should have pointed you in that direction.

The lyrics in the musical staff mentions Nave twice. "Nave" is a special word in the text, as it's the only word that is represented somewhere else, namely in the list of "planets". A song about another planet is not impossible, but a song about "the world" is much more plausible.

So, first out:
Nave is the name of the MO world

Nave as a name (as most other important names in MO) has several meanings and references:

In the past people believed the MO world was the center of the universe (a geocentic model), and as such the planet was the Nave/hub of the universe. Although this theory is now mostly abandoned (for a heliocentric model, like the Armillogion), the name still lives on.

Nave is also the central part of a church, i.e. the area reserved for Mortals (as opposed to the clergy or the sanctuary).

Nave is the ship of mortals that travels through space and time.

Nave is of course also the "navel" - the central part or point of everything, and what connects the fetus to it's mother.


I have to say I'm deeply impressed by the work you've done in this thread. You're setting a very high standard for the "quests" to come :p

Next up, some info regarding the Armillogion.
If you haven't already noticed, the MO lore is in part made up from scratch, in part very inspired by a large number of different real-world events, religions and myths - all altered and/or twisted to fit the MO world.

If the lore, languages, gods etc had been totally made up from scratch, threads like this one (or riddles) would look very different.
We don't use real Latin in MO for two reasons:
1. It's fits the MO world better to have our own languages, in the case of the Tindremic Empire inspired by the Latin language. It's more fun and can actually make more sense, especially when it comes to declension and conjugation.
2. It's way too difficult to write correct Latin.

So, for Tindrem I use pseudo-latin, mixed with flavors from Italian, Greek and English.

Second-Hand Knowledge
(I don't know if this is legitimate or not since it wasn't posted by Mats, but the poster implied that he wrote it.)

The Sidoian mindset

In general, Sidoians almost seem to have a physical need of being a part of a clearly structured and hierarchical collective, no matter their individual position in that collective. Normally and historically, the tribe structure with its Worker/Philosopher arrangement is what constitutes this collective, however most Sidoian tribes and many individuals are now spread out in the world, with only sporadic contact.
Furthermore, it seems like the collective a Sidoian belongs to must have strict social and/or religious rules and dogmas, and preferably these dogmas should be rooted in mathematics, numerology (Isopsephy/Gematria), geometry, "logic" and the like (see examples below).

Without this, they become... mentally unstable. You could almost compare the Sidoians and their society to something like OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder); in a Sidoian tribe with its plethora of regulations, the individual Sidoians show no symptoms of this compulsive behavior, it is as if the society with all its compulsive dogmas is making up for the “affliction” of its individuals. However if a Sidoian is not part of such a collective, he or she will personally start to show compulsive symptoms instead, in very irregular ways. The compulsive symptoms vary between individuals and are not “organized” like the tribe dogmas are - they may appear as anxiety, an urge to count and measure things over and over again, excessive hoarding, aversion to particular numbers or time periods, and all kind of nervous rituals.
However, although there are a multitude of rules imposed by Sidoian tribes doesn't necessarily mean that there are “punishments” of any sort for breaking them. A Sidoian simply doesn't break rules, because the idea of following rules - whatever the rules are - results in a mental reward, whereas breaking a rule leads to severe mental anxiety and uneasiness. In a Sidoian tribe, this of course gets even more emphasized as their culture also teaches them that breaking rules upsets the balance of things; “the rules and rituals are there for a higher purpose, we just have to learn more to understand what that purpose is”. This means that a Sidoian orphan raised in an outside community, if asked the question “Why don't you break the rules sometime, everybody else does?” probably would answer “I don't know, it simply feels wrong inside”, whereas a tribe-member probably would say “It upsets the balance of things”, because those are the words he has been taught, and they correspond well to his feelings. Now, this following of rules doesn't have anything to do with ethics or being “good”, as a Sidoian wouldn't hesitate to follow rules that for instance tells him to kill, and still answer “It feels wrong inside” if asked why he doesn't ignore those rules.
In a tribe, breaking rules is almost solely done by mistake, and if anyone does, it is his or her loss, and there is seldom any need for any punishment. In the case of an individual breaking the rules on numerous occasions, resulting in negative effects for the tribe, he or she would probably simply be cast out.
These two properties of the Sidoian mindset - the need for being a part of a collective, and the need for rules - affect them and their society in a number of ways in the post-Shinarian world.
Sidoians without a tribe
Solitary Sidoians are usually very lost in the world, and lone wanderers will often give a socially distrait, absent-minded, confused or somewhat deranged impression, although they might be extremely talented in their actual trade. Unless they join some form of group or society, and unless that community imposes strict rules, or lets them impose strict rules in return, there is always something lacking in their lives, and they start to show compulsive symptoms. Another problem is that many non-Sidoian communities have many conflicting or paradoxal rules, without Elders or Jurists to consult. A rootless Sidoian trying to follow conflicting rules, without guidance, is subjected to enormous mental pressure and is likely to eventually get confused, depressed or even schizophrenic. In an acute or life-and-death situation with conflicting rules, he may break down, panic, or mentally repress the entire situation - meaning simply mentally block off the people and/or objects involved as if they didn't exist.

Other Sidoians might find somewhat of a substitute in heavily regulated professions, perhaps as slaves or slave-drivers, or, unless they are met with suspicion and prejudice, in military organizations, advanced construction, law and jurisprudence, or as administrators of economy or staff. However, even the most complex organizations and rules of other cultures usually pale in comparison to those of a Sidoian tribe. Furthermore, most other human professions with strict or complex rules means a harsh environment (for instance in slavery or military), and/or have equally hard punishments for breaking the rules, even by mistake, and that is something a Sidoian might not be prepared for, or wish for. Needless to say, Sidoians are known for their loyalty and adherence (which of course really has nothing to do with “loyalty” as in allegiance or devotion, as it is simply an effect of their mindset), and some have attained high ranks in non-Sidoian societies.

Sidoian tribe-members visiting another society will always ask a lot about, and meticulously try to follow, its rules, but as they have the rules and laws of the tribe to rely on, and as they already “belong” to a tribe, they are much more mentally stable. However their constant asking about rules, combined with their non-questioning attitude towards strange rules (as long as they are not conflicting or mathematically illogical) makes them very easy to fool and this has earned them a reputation as dumb in many societies.
Sidoian tribes
The shattered and isolated tribes try to uphold the traditional rules and dogmas, but as one of the main principles of the Sidoian people is to gather and/or retrieve knowledge, the rules change over time as new or lost knowledge is acquired. This means that although all tribes you encounter have enormous lists of laws, regulations, rules and so on, they are sometimes very different. The tribes that do meet, back in Sidoia or outside, spend most of their time arguing over newly discovered knowledge and the validity of new dogmas, so even for those there is little or no consensus.

Your tribe
This means that you are rather free to come up with social/normal and “compulsive” rules for your Sidoian tribe as you see fit. I will give you a couple of examples of typical Sidoian compulsive dogmas you can find in Nave:

The rules of some tribes state that a person's free day of the week should be the same weekday he or she is born, meaning if you are born on a “Tuesday”, you will have your work-free day on “Tuesdays”. Furthermore, a Worker must do Philosophical work (and vice versa) every 9th year and the timing is decided in accordance to his or her name (when the digital root of the values of the letters in his name equals the digital root of the number of the current year*). This of course means that the whole tribe must work via a complex rotating schedule.

* For instance the merry butcher Sabas has a name with a value of:

S=19, A=1, B=2

SABAS = 19,1,2,1,19

19+1+2+1+19 = 42

4+2 = 6

This means that year 258 (2+5+8 = 15 (1+5) = 6) Sabas must do Philosophical work. His next year of Philosophical work is 267 (2+6+7 = 15 (1+5) =6).

Akeheka's Fourth Rule of Commerce states that whenever anyone pays someone for a service, the sum must be multiplied by a huge random number, and a small random number must then be added to that number (randomized numbers are most often generated with an abacus-like device). The participants must then find out if the resulting number is a prime number or not before the trade can take place and the (original) sum can be paid. The collected numbers and their prime status must be reported to a Counting Official on a weekly basis. Now, some scholars claim that this ancient rule was founded simply as a temporary means to gather a lot of prime/non-prime numbers so that Akeheka could reconstruct the forgotten Sieve of Uhu. As the Sieve of Uhu is long since constructed, the law has filled its purpose and is therefore obsolete and should be discarded. Other scholars refuse to believe this, for a number of reasons. This means that some tribes still apply the law in all trade while others do not.
Another example is the Sidoian naming. Many traditional Sidoian names are palindromes (can be read in either direction, such as Ana or Lemel, and also with spaces, such as in Ev Akave (evakave)). Beside the palindrome names, names with mathematical twists to them are common. Also, a person will often change his name when he changes occupation or rank. Short names indicate status, so generally newborns are given very long names, whereas people with a very high rank may have only one, two or three letters. Thus, a person might be born as Aheka Tôtakeha, and later shorten it by removing the outer 3 letters on each side to form Katôtak, and later to Tôt, and if he ever achieves a legendary status, Ô.
This generally means a shortage of names for legendary persons, as there can only be that many Ô's or A's or T's. However that does not necessarily pose a problem as the traditional Sidoian writing is based on pictograms (like Hieroglyphs), and as several pictograms can represent the same letter, an elevated person simply chooses or is assigned a symbol that represents that letter. A person may therefore be known both as Ô and as “Burning Sun”, as the symbol for Burning Sun means “Ô” if read as a letter.
Though to complicate matters further; when a person is mentioned, the point of time of the context is what decides what name should be used. Akeheka, who we stumbled upon above, founded many more laws at later dates, but you will find that for instance the Sixteenth Rule of Commerce is attributed to Kehek (Kehek's Sixteenth Rule of Commerce), not Akeheka, as he had changed his name at that point.

Background
Now, you might ask, why this inclination towards numerology, logic and mathematics, and why do they have these dogmas in the first place? Is it because of their former masters? Is it because they were slaves? Is it a religion, meaning is it for the gods?

The problem is that the tribes don't know why. That is lost knowledge. A Sidoian would probably compare it to a great equation; they have many parts of it, but many of the fundamental parts are lost. Hence they search for clues to those fundaments, and/or try to calculate them. That is also why it is so difficult to add new elements to the equation, because you can never check them for errors, you can only make estimations. And this is probably also why many of the later social rules have expanded into areas of society which the original rules never touched. A Sidoian scholar would say that at one point in time Sidoian "belief and practice" was purely concrete and logical, objectively speaking - but that at this point in time it is impossible to separate “science” from “religion” as more knowledge is required to know which of the new rules are right or wrong. But a new rule is a new rule, and if newly acquired knowledge means that the calculations says that a temple should be constructed, but that it can only be worked at every 142th day, and that it should be 1.618 meters in width and depth, and 33.3 meters high, and therefore practically unusable, that is what will be built.
All this said; don't be afraid of the mathematics and rules of the Sidoians when making your tribe. Rules may be very different from tribe to tribe, and nothing says you have to pick mathematical/logic rules that affect day-to-day gaming and RP'ing to the extreme. This is supposed to be fun and inspiring, and as long as you include any math or logic (and/or compulsive behavior) _at all_, and act like there are a lot of rules, it will be good Sidoian RP'ing. Also, you are of course free to come up with local “rules and formulas”; axioms, theorems, constants, conjectures and so on, and insert them into your lore as you see fit. For instance if you want a reason for why your houses are placed the way they are, you can always make up stuff like “The buildings are arranged to match the aperiodical tiling of the sacred Yur-mosaic”. And if you want to explain to someone why the members of your guild walk backwards 12 minutes every day as a means of travel, you can say that “What do you think? If we constantly walked forward, Hoh's Later Conjecture of Trichotomous Isomorphism clearly shows that the quasimetric topology of the land would make our Khorlos asymmetrical!”

I hope I have managed to inspire you in one way or another. Feel free to ask me anything, but please remember that I have very little time to answer, if any

Best regards,
Mats
-edit- Can we get an official word on if that Sidoian tidbit is true lore or not? That's the kind of stuff we really need to RP characters.. It's very interesting and inspiring.
 
There is no link to the post above; where did you find it and what was the posters name?
 
Thread starter #3

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
Boop. (forecem's post) It was a quote within a spoiler with a link that didn't work to an image (I think it's a corrupted version of a smiley or something?), forgot the hyperlink. Apologies.

I think that, if Mats did write it (it's quite the elaborate thing for anyone else to have come up with, honestly), then it was for Sidoian RPers. Probably for a small Sidoian group or something who sent him a message to want to know how to RP them better?

Why someone would write so much, pretend to not have much time, reference plenty of lore things, risk being banned for impersonating an SV staff member (which they weren't), put in that much amount of thought, etc. Is beyond me. I won't accept it as anything official until we get word on it from SV, but I don't doubt it's plausibility. I think that the poster may not have even been an RPer themselves, but they saw the post somewhere else and just copy-pasted it and Marcus didn't know what it was (if a wall of text is thrown at you, how likely are you going to be to read it?) and nobody else looked. I'm thinking it might've been a PM to the leader of a RPing Sidoian tribe from Mats. They have markers that a few of Mat's other posts including him apologizing for not having much time and stuff. It's something that could have been fabricated, but it pushes more in the direction of slight credibility.

We lost a lot of things that only a small handful of people who're now gone might've known, since Mats seemed to have PM'd people about lore things from time to time (evidence of this within the Mortal Online Clock Thread fiasco in the later pages). So until SV confirms it, it's hard to say.

-edit- Might I mention that I'm actually surprised at just how many old members we have that were in on the lore scene.
 

Sarkhan

Well-Known Member
Gaht damn, I have never read that before. Do you know how good it feels to read a piece of MO lore that you've never seen before? Today is a good day. :)

That sounds pretty damn legitimate to me, which just gets me all the more excited.

Props Tuht!
 
Thread starter #5

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
I'm gonna cry, I found more:
Meduli is still not a desert, there are no deserts in Myrland:
Example of a mediterranean coastline

Meduli is civilized and has a couple of small farms, a thriving fishing industry, it has good connections by the sea to Tindrem, well-trafficked trade routes to Vadda, and it lies close to the large plantations of Obrig between Tindrem and Meduli (the small village is not there yet which is kinda strange, however the plantations are) and the lush jungle area of Canteri in the south.

Gaul'Kor is a former mining town for soldiers, poor workers, punitive laborers and slaves, which was sacked by the Risars several times until the Empire finally gave it up. It no longer has any connection to the Empire. The whole kettle-like area surrounding the "city" is uncultivable due to pollution and tailings from the mines, and the outer Gabaria region is burnt by Risars from time to time, once scavenged for the little food there is. Unless you travel over the rough mountainous terrain, which is more or less impossible with wagons, you have to travel on the remains of the old Via Gabaria road which leads by the well-guarded Risar Wall in the east. The closest city, which you reach after going through two mountain passes, is Morin Khur. Needless to say, there are no official caravans going to Gaul'Kor any longer.

So I wouldn't compare the two. The only reason I would put a grocer in Gaul'Kor is if it becomes "impossible" to play without one. I admit the setting in the game is not always equal to the lore yet (for instance where is Obrig and Canteri, what about Tindrem? Roads?), but that is no reason not follow the lore when adding new stuff - in fact its the other way around :)
You didn't get the full poster, and some of it is wrong, so I'll provide it here with some corrections:
Risar Exploratori Muneror

Condalium (you wrote candalium)
Auricula
Auricula Ungulus
Auricula Risar Obustus: Risar Chieftain
Caput Tribunus (you forgot that one)
Auricula Risar Obustus

Oorak Bicornigus
Thrakesh Dentifrangibulus
Gaal Unctus

Ministerium Militaï
Tindrem
The individual "surnames" are the epithets given to them (or interpreted?) by the Tindremenes.

And I can't help myself from pointing out this:
[...]
Vica: District
[...]
Vica: Sinking, City (One of those two, not both)
Caducus: Sinking, City (One of those two, not both)
;)

There should be a few, although not that many, in the story The Battle of Nereb Madgulu as well.
I guess it's because "iron" is used in everyday life in Nave to describe stuff, more or less as an adjective:

- resembling iron in firmness, strength, color, etc.: an iron will.
- stern; harsh; cruel.
- inflexible; unrelenting.
- strong; robust; healthy.
- holding or binding strongly: an iron grip.

But I could of course rename them to Strongsilk, Robustbone, Inflexiblewood and Unrelentingwool instead? :)
Currently, you have Ecumenical Spells, which are like ..common spells, and those need Reagents, yes. In part because they need to be balanced, but they are also closely tied to the lore. Please read on.

That may be true in general game theory, but not necessarily for MO. Let me quote:

-

I agree with this, but there's more to it. When people think of magic (this also seems to be the case in "general game theory" as well as in a lot of fantasy literature) they tend to think of a "special power". Maybe like a "force" that works outside of the "boundaries" of the physical world. Conjuring up a ball of fire from nothing, would be a good example. Now, as nothing like this exist in our own world, this type of "force" must therefore be disconnected to the "real world", even in the fantasy game/book.

Magic in MO differs from this in a number of ways. I imagine that in a renaissance-ish society where music, math, physics, art, chemistry and so on are all intermixed (as opposed to being separate specialized fields), magic would be just another component. For instance there wouldn't be any "border" between magic and music, because magic would be a part of music, just like math is a part of music and vice versa.

The question is, is there even such a thing as "raw magic" (outside of magic theory), and if there is, what would be the use for it? You can isolate math, but it has no use, and it is only theoretical, until you actually apply it to another field, whether it's theoretical physics or dividing your corn field. There is no use for "raw math". Likewise, magic is not separated from the other fields - it's a component that is intertwined in everything else. In other words, magic is not breaking the laws of nature, it is a part of the laws of nature in MO.

Another example would be physics. You can isolate physics into a specialized field, that only deals with the laws of physics; but are those a set of rules that reality must obey, or are they what we can derive from the current state of reality? In MO, you could ask if the laws of nature where put there by the gods as a firmament for creation, or if the gods themselves had to adjust their creation to the laws of nature, bending and sometimes breaking them to get their will through? The same questions can be asked in regards to magic.

Practically this means that in our world, we are able to distinguish between the "magician" doing card tricks and "real magic", simply because there is no real magic. Any real magic in our would immediately stand out, and be a very isolated field, because we know that it's not possible to make a card disappear for real according to the laws of our nature. And we (and several authors) tend to take for granted that this must be the case in fantasy worlds as well.

Instead, imagine a world that has magic, where a small portion of it is always present even in everyday life. Science and theory is at another point than in our own age, partly due to the progress of civilization but maybe also partly due to the presence of magic. In this world there is no difference between a card trick and a "magic" card trick, at least not for the layman. And even for the expert in theoretical magic the difference is vague. One trick may deal with math, another with aether planes. Both are very real. Both have parts of magic in them.

We who stand on the outside may feel the compulsion to think that magic and aether planes are different from the "physical world" and "the laws of nature" in Nave, but that is because we compare it to our own world. However neither the layman nor the expert in Nave can say that or draw that conclusion, and if they did it would be wrong, because aether planes are very real, and the laws of nature are what they have always(?) been.

So the use of reagents are in a way, alchemy. The reagents are partly based on chemical reactions in our own world, but you can do other things with them than you can in our own world, as there is also "magic" in MO. However, do not fall into the trap of separating the two because one cannot really exist without at least a small portion of the other.

In "pure" alchemy, you will mix materials at your workbench with the aid of magic, but you won't fling or teleport the result onto another player. Likewise, there will be other magic that doesn't deal with alchemical reactions.

Now, if magic where to be separated into an isolated theoretical field in Nave (like math), what it really "is" and how it "works", I leave for you to find out.
Blame me, not the poor coder-guy.

The nerdy reasoning behind the name goes like this:
They've got a parrot-like "beak", and as that beak is similar to the prow of certain ships and chariots, the Tindremenes call it a prow. Now, a prow is usually "cutting" the water, air or earth in front of it, but I've taken the liberty to say that the everyday/common word (verb) for doing that has become "prowing". Like a plough/plow is "ploughing" (U.K.) or "plowing" (U.S.).

So a "Shore Prower" is a creature that is "prowing" along the shoreline in search for food. It's a combination of ploughing/plowing the sand, cutting through the water, and cutting plants with its prow. It could of course be said to be prowling in the sense of "rove over or through in search of what may be found", but not in the sense of "go about stealthily in search of pray" as they are way too clumsy for that, and also most Prower species are herbivores.

But if you don't like my take on it, I will change the name to something else. It's not like it's a big issue, it's just me fooling around ;)



 
Thread starter #6

Tuhtram

Silver Supporter
This was the song being talked about in the last post:

 

Sarkhan

Well-Known Member
Just noticed that second post you made regarding all the lore, too much for me to handle..

So the vineyards supposedly belong to Obrig! If only it was there, though I must admit, it would be a little clogged to have Tindrem - Obrig - Fabernum - Kranesh - AND Meduli all in the same 'region'. Not to mention Obrig was meant to be a haven for Thursar, meaning it would most likely be a lawless town, simply adding another haven near a blue town for people to work out of. Still, I would like to see it someday.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
As Calvin of Bill Watterson's 'Calvin and Hobbes' once said, "Verbing weirds language."

I cannot forgive.

Blame me, not the poor coder-guy.

The nerdy reasoning behind the name goes like this:
They've got a parrot-like "beak", and as that beak is similar to the prow of certain ships and chariots, the Tindremenes call it a prow. Now, a prow is usually "cutting" the water, air or earth in front of it, but I've taken the liberty to say that the everyday/common word (verb) for doing that has become "prowing". Like a plough/plow is "ploughing" (U.K.) or "plowing" (U.S.).

So a "Shore Prower" is a creature that is "prowing" along the shoreline in search for food. It's a combination of ploughing/plowing the sand, cutting through the water, and cutting plants with its prow. It could of course be said to be prowling in the sense of "rove over or through in search of what may be found", but not in the sense of "go about stealthily in search of pray" as they are way too clumsy for that, and also most Prower species are herbivores.

But if you don't like my take on it, I will change the name to something else. It's not like it's a big issue, it's just me fooling around ;)
Yes, change it.
 
Reading Mats' old posts is interesting and a tad bit depressing. Wonderfully rich plan and purpose, and dealt with those that didn't "get it" in such a direct and logical way. I miss that.
 
-edit- Can we get an official word on if that Sidoian tidbit is true lore or not? That's the kind of stuff we really need to RP characters.. It's very interesting and inspiring.
Confirmed. It was indeed a PM - I intended to polish it a bit and post it on the forums before more official lore was written, but never got the time.
 

RhodriTaliesin

Cronite Supporter
Confirmed. It was indeed a PM - I intended to polish it a bit and post it on the forums before more official lore was written, but never got the time.
Mats please come back and help finish this game. There are still those of us who loved your work and vision for Mortal!

We need you! :(
 
Confirmed. It was indeed a PM - I intended to polish it a bit and post it on the forums before more official lore was written, but never got the time.
If you are not coming back you should be banned from the forums. All this lore/cock- teasing is unacceptable.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
Wasn't Mats the one who pretty much ran things during Dawn days? Or am i mistaking?
 
So many stones. Soldeus does not cast stones. Lucious does not cast stones,

Kaideline cannot spell ...

What evil has this man done that you should be so willing?:eek:
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
So many stones. Soldeus does not cast stones. Lucious does not cast stones,

Kaideline cannot spell ...

What evil has this man done that you should be so willing?:eek:
I think the evil done was not on his part, but on the part of Star Vault, for casting him out. IF it's true that he doesn't work for them anymore. At the very least, that would seem to be a grave mistake on their part.
 
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