Mortal Online 2 on Google Stadia

It all sounds too good to be true.

How much of my soul do I have to give Google rights to in order to use it?

I guess I'll probably have to send them a swab of my DNA and sign a blood pact of eternal servitude.
 
isnt this whole stadia thing just letting you stream games meaning your computer doesnt have to be high powered to be good graphics? How would that in any way help with the development of MO2 or make it possible to do more?
Yes, you are correct on not needing high-end machines of a particular platform to play games. You could even play on a smartphone several years old.

The way game development on Stadia will work is that the game runs on Google’s computer clusters worldwide so the end user doesn’t need to invest in gaming machines like we do at present. It just needs to be streamed to our devices, and with 5G high-speed connections just around the corner it will likely be possible to enjoy the highest end games on even the lowest end devices.

Not trying to sound like I support Stadia wholeheartedly, being a traditional gaming PC person myself, but just talking about what could be possible once this technology goes mainstream and widely adopted in the video gaming industry.
 
Thread starter #24

Wollkneul

Junior Member
isnt this whole stadia thing just letting you stream games meaning your computer doesnt have to be high powered to be good graphics? How would that in any way help with the development of MO2 or make it possible to do more?
The classical bottleneck of every online game is the fact, that your bandwidth requirements with every player and object increase exponentially.

Let´s say you have an online game and each player generates data of 1 mb/s.

With 2 players, each player needs to download data about the other player, so it´s for every player 1 mb/s to download and for the server 2 mb/s to upload.

With 10 players, each player needs to download 9 mb/s and the server needs to upload 90 mb/s

With 100 players, each player needs to download 99 mb/s and the server needs to upload 9900 mb/s

Now with Google Stadia, for a stream of 23 mb/s and 100 players, each player needs to download 23mb/s and the server needs to upload 2300 mb/s


And then take into account, that a game world not only has player, but thousands of objects, npcs, etc.

With stadia, the amount of objects, physics, players and so on is just limited by the upload capabilities and processing power of the server.
And these are the best of the world (Every instance on Stadia has more processing power than the current Xbox and PlayStation combined)
 
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Thread starter #25

Wollkneul

Junior Member
oh boy, I sure do love me some input lag.
Eurogamer tested Stadia recently:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-hands-on-with-google-stream-gdc-2019

"In terms of controller response though, AC Odyssey on Stadia feels very close to a local experience - timing-sensitive moves like parrying are achieved with no problem whatsoever - and that brings us on to another latency element. We tested using the Pixelbook's keyboard, while Google says that its controller's direct WiFi link to the server delivers further latency advantages. "


For a single player title, the whole latency on 15mb/s is 188ms. On a PC with 30fps 133ms.

If you add multiplayer into the equation stadia would have the same latency as a PC with 55ms ping.

How many people have a ping like this in Mortal right now with 15mb/s?

People act as if Mortal would have a fluid Age of Chivalry-like combat experience right now with super low latency and Stadia would threaten this experience.
Stadia would make combat probably much more fluid and responsive than it is right now.
 
Thread starter #26

Wollkneul

Junior Member
There is another point I forgot to talk about regarding latency advantages of Stadia and in my opinion it´s the strongest point

No need anymore for Client-side prediction:

"There are many variants of client-side prediction but the basic idea is always the same: the client responds to player input by moving the player before the server processes the input and tells the client where they player should be. This of course means where a player sees themselves and where they actually are on the server can be different. "

http://www.kinematicsoup.com/news/2017/5/30/multiplayerprediction

Since there is a difference between client state and server state, this inherently leads to problems of synchronization.
Every online game has it. You can recognize that sometimes in shooters when you are jumping behind a wall and still getting hit. This is because, on your client, your character was behind the wall, but on the server and on the client of everybody else, the character was still on the field. In Mortal I was hit countless times from an NPC or player, that was like 10m away from me. But on the server, they were of course right next to me.

With Stadia this will be a thing of the past.

What you see on the screen is always what happens on the server.
When you press the jump button a few milliseconds later the server receives that command and lets your character jump. Then this new "jump state" gets sent to everyone at the same time. Therefore everything you see on the screen is always the current server state and there is never a synchronization issue.

This leads to another interesting conclusion. As long as the latency is about the same for everyone, it shouldn´t be a problem for combat or similar reaction sensitive things since it kind of cancels each other's latency out!

Let´s say one player A wants to swing his sword at another player B. A sends the swinging command to the server and the character is raising his sword. Both players are seeing the rise at the sword at the same time, as long as they have the same latency. Now player B reacts and sends the block command, while player A sends the release swing command. The swing gets blocked. Both commands get to the server at the same time and no player can have an advantage over the other one.

Let´s look at what happens in traditional online games:

Let´s say one player A wants to swing his sword at another player B. A sends the swinging command to his client and the server. The character is raising his sword instantly in his client and a little bit later in the server. Player A is seeing the rise at the sword first and after the server has processed it, send it to player B and Player B´s client has processed the animation, finally after some time the animation is visible for player B even if they have the same latency. Now player B reacts and sends the block command.
If player A sends the release swing command faster than the client of player B was able to process the swing and send the block command back, the swing doesn´t get blocked, even though on the client of player B blocked the swing at the right time

Be honest, every Mortal player had a situation like this.
It´s an intrinsic design issue and it´s impossible to completely solve it with the current tech.
With Stadia though, like I said, a thing of the past.
 
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Be honest, every Mortal player had a situation like this.
It´s an intrinsic design issue and it´s impossible to completely solve it with the current tech.
With Stadia though, like I said, a thing of the past.
When the things you said should work the game server and graphics streamt server must be in the same location. This might work great for shooter or other lobby based games where only player of the same region are merged.

But now let's talk about an MMO played by people all around the world. Some people always will have higher ping numbers.
Do you know that feeling when you play a shooter and when aiming in a different direction it takes some time until your monitor reacts to your Inputs? Exactly this player with bad ping will always feel.
It's the same thing that causes VR Headset users to become sick: slow response time to inputs.

Even for low ping players streaming will always be worse than a Gaming PC: the input reaction time will always slower by at least the ping time.

However, for Apache playing on a toaster it will be a major improvement.
 
How many people have a ping like this in Mortal right now with 15mb/s?
How is the data rate related to the ping?
Someone with 1 mb/s and someone with 100 mb/s in the same location with the same internet provider will have exactly the same ping.
If he doesn't the internet provider is using some package prioritization, which is at least in Germany illeagal.
 
For a single player title, the whole latency on 15mb/s is 188ms. On a PC with 30fps 133ms.

If you add multiplayer into the equation stadia would have the same latency as a PC with 55ms ping.
Actually according to wikipedia 133 seconds are for normal games like strategy games. For first person games it's only half.

"It also appears that (excluding the monitor/television display lag) 133 ms is an average response time and the most sensitive games (fighting games, first person shooters and rhythm games) achieve response times of 67 ms (excluding display lag). "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

"Testing has found that overall "input lag" (from controller input to display response) times of approximately 200 ms are distracting to the user. "

So based on that 188ms are in the noticeable area ( > 200 because the monitor response time adds on top of it).
 

Speznat

Senior Member
Actually according to wikipedia 133 seconds are for normal games like strategy games. For first person games it's only half.

"It also appears that (excluding the monitor/television display lag) 133 ms is an average response time and the most sensitive games (fighting games, first person shooters and rhythm games) achieve response times of 67 ms (excluding display lag). "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

"Testing has found that overall "input lag" (from controller input to display response) times of approximately 200 ms are distracting to the user. "

So based on that 188ms are in the noticeable area ( > 200 because the monitor response time adds on top of it).
rhias is pretending to be a Intelli nicy guy, look at me im rhias i know about technonology and quouting wikipedia xD

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Would any Stadia-caused latency be simply added to your existing latency? If so, it wouldn't make any disadvantage a player has now relative others any worse. Yes, if large enough, a latency can stil make your playing experience less enjoyable, but from what I've seen so far, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I would gladly take some added latency in exchange for no more client-side cheats and predictions.
 
Would any Stadia-caused latency be simply added to your existing latency? If so, it wouldn't make any disadvantage a player has now relative others any worse. Yes, if large enough, a latency can stil make your playing experience less enjoyable, but from what I've seen so far, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I would gladly take some added latency in exchange for no more client-side cheats and predictions.
As long as the stadia server and the game server have a noticeable ping between each other there will be prediction. And as I mentioned above it's hard for MMOs since eighter there will be prediction, or heavy input lag for the players on the other side of earth.
 
As long as the stadia server and the game server have a noticeable ping between each other there will be prediction. And as I mentioned above it's hard for MMOs since eighter there will be prediction, or heavy input lag for the players on the other side of earth.
The Stadia server is the game server, or at least they will be located in the same Google center. So no prediction necessary. And there already is a heavy lag for players on the other side of the earth. My point is that their disadvantage won't get any worse playing on Stadia than what they already suffer.

The two of biggest problems with MO are the f**king cheaters and the ridiculous prediction which turns off new players (with getting hit by players who have their back to them or by those several meters away). Stadia gets rid of those problems.
 
Thread starter #34

Wollkneul

Junior Member
When the things you said should work the game server and graphics streamt server must be in the same location. This might work great for shooter or other lobby based games where only player of the same region are merged.

But now let's talk about an MMO played by people all around the world. Some people always will have higher ping numbers.
Do you know that feeling when you play a shooter and when aiming in a different direction it takes some time until your monitor reacts to your Inputs? Exactly this player with bad ping will always feel.
It's the same thing that causes VR Headset users to become sick: slow response time to inputs.

Even for low ping players streaming will always be worse than a Gaming PC: the input reaction time will always slower by at least the ping time.

However, for Apache playing on a toaster it will be a major improvement.
Stadia is not running on one server (like Mortal currently), it is running on a cluster of servers all around the world that are able to talk to each other through their very own cable network:

Let's say player A has Server A next to him and Player B has Server B. These servers have to share the same game state, so if A and B are doing something at the same time, the signal of player A reaches server A at the same time as player B's server B.
Then the servers talk to each other and update (this happens much faster compared to "public" networks, since the servers don't have to share traffic with the rest of the world). Now server A sends the updated state to player A and Server B to player B.
Nobody has an advantage over the other one.




How is the data rate related to the ping?
Someone with 1 mb/s and someone with 100 mb/s in the same location with the same internet provider will have exactly the same ping.
If he doesn't the internet provider is using some package prioritization, which is at least in Germany illeagal.
Low bandwidth and high ping do correlate to each other, because of possible network congestion. But you are right, a higher bandwidth doesn´t necessarily mean, that you have a better ping.

Actually according to wikipedia 133 seconds are for normal games like strategy games. For first person games it's only half.

"It also appears that (excluding the monitor/television display lag) 133 ms is an average response time and the most sensitive games (fighting games, first person shooters and rhythm games) achieve response times of 67 ms (excluding display lag). "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

"Testing has found that overall "input lag" (from controller input to display response) times of approximately 200 ms are distracting to the user. "

So based on that 188ms are in the noticeable area ( > 200 because the monitor response time adds on top of it).
This passage doesn´t make any sense and also doesn´t have any quotation.
It doesn´t make any sense, since the game doesn´t achieve the input lag, your computer system does. Your computer doesn´t "know" what kind of game you are playing and therefore can´t magically increase it´s computation and transmitting powers when you are playing a first-person shooter.

You are probably referring to the article of Eurogamer regarding the latency and it´s obvious that you didn´t read the article. They used a high-speed camera and measured the time, from button press until the frame on the screen changed. So in the 188ms, the monitor response is already included.

Maybe more people didn´t take the time to read the article so here is the table:

1554365102844.png


As you can see Stadia on a good connection has the same latency as the Xbox One, including display lag.

One of the reasons why they are able to do that is, that one frame on Stadia computes more than twice as fast as one frame on the Xbox.
 
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Thread starter #35

Wollkneul

Junior Member
And if you ask yourself how fast the servers can talk to each other and to the player:
The signal in a fiber optic cable from Australia to the US would take about 0.00011 ms. As you can see the main reason for latency between these countries is routing along countless nodes, like this presentation pics of Google demonstrate:

1554366658265.png



1554366922290.png
 
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It will be the end of the high-end gaming PCs and consoles industry as we know it, when anyone with a streaming-capable device will be able to play high-end games as long as the connection is decent and stable.

I guess there will still be a use for high-end devices to play high-end games when an internet connection isn’t available.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
I think stadia is a nice idea, but in times of latency it must be slower, alone form the logic it will be always slower than a dedicated hardcore pc in front of your face that is conenctet with a 10cm lan cable to your router were the sharepoint of your city is 5-8 meters away. even than google stadia would beslower alone form the logicc or do i miss something here?
 
Thread starter #38

Wollkneul

Junior Member
I think stadia is a nice idea, but in times of latency it must be slower, alone form the logic it will be always slower than a dedicated hardcore pc in front of your face that is conenctet with a 10cm lan cable to your router were the sharepoint of your city is 5-8 meters away. even than google stadia would beslower alone form the logicc or do i miss something here?

Do you mean rendering latency? Yes, a gaming PC is faster. If you look at the chart of Eurogamer, depending on your rig, between 54 and 87 ms faster.

But

The average reaction time of a human being to a visual stimulus is 250 ms and Stadia performs well below that. That means it is still very much in the area of what is humanly possible in regards to making a difference.

Do you mean internet latency? No, just read what I wrote earlier. Or just watch the presentation on youtube.
 
Stadia is not running on one server (like Mortal currently), it is running on a cluster of servers all around the world that are able to talk to each other through their very own cable network:

Let's say player A has Server A next to him and Player B has Server B. These servers have to share the same game state, so if A and B are doing something at the same time, the signal of player A reaches server A at the same time as player B's server B.
Then the servers talk to each other and update (this happens much faster compared to "public" networks, since the servers don't have to share traffic with the rest of the world). Now server A sends the updated state to player A and Server B to player B.
Nobody has an advantage over the other one.
Usually it's really hard to keep everything on sync. Mortal Online currently has nodes, which are split in regions. We have major bugs and lags when these notes meet each other (nodelines). Now assume that we still have different nodes, but they are no longer split in regions. So basically every position in the world is a nodeline (or several nodelines at once). Maybe some major AAA game studios are able to handle this complexity, but I doubt that a team with the resources of SV is able to handle this. Someone like unreal would need to implement such a system into their game engine, making it simple to use.

"The signal in a fiber optic cable from Australia to the US would take about 0.00011 ms. As you can see the main reason for latency between these countries is routing along countless nodes, like this presentation pics of Google demonstrate: "
Right, but doesn't that mean when the public infrastructure would reduce the number of nodes (to let's say only 3 nodes), every player would get a much lower ping, which could also solve these dsync issues?




Low bandwidth and high ping do correlate to each other, because of possible network congestion. But you are right, a higher bandwidth doesn´t necessarily mean, that you have a better ping.
Touché.


This passage doesn´t make any sense and also doesn´t have any quotation.
It doesn´t make any sense, since the game doesn´t achieve the input lag, your computer system does. Your computer doesn´t "know" what kind of game you are playing and therefore can´t magically increase it´s computation and transmitting powers when you are playing a first-person shooter.
On the picture with the Latency you can see that there is a significant difference between the "PC 30fps" and "PC 60fps". That a computer is able to archive 60 fps in one games does not mean it is able to archive 60fps in all games. It's based on game/engine optimization. Shooters and first person games are usually optimized to archive a much higher frame rate. Some strategy games are even capped at a certain frame rate because it's not needed.


You are probably referring to the article of Eurogamer regarding the latency and it´s obvious that you didn´t read the article. They used a high-speed camera and measured the time, from button press until the frame on the screen changed. So in the 188ms, the monitor response is already included.

Maybe more people didn´t take the time to read the article so here is the table:

View attachment 12546

As you can see Stadia on a good connection has the same latency as the Xbox One, including display lag.

One of the reasons why they are able to do that is, that one frame on Stadia computes more than twice as fast as one frame on the Xbox.
I'm pretty sure every gaming PC computes twice as fast as an Xbox. I'm not saying stadia is not addressing a valid use case. I assume 90% of "casual gamers" playing on Xbox, Playstation, Swtich, or even a toaster. So actually they are adressing a mass marked with 90% of people with low to medium hardware. But I still think they are not able to compete with high end gaming computers. I assume some people (@Speznat ) do have a more expensive computer than car.
 

Speznat

Senior Member
Usually it's really hard to keep everything on sync. Mortal Online currently has nodes, which are split in regions. We have major bugs and lags when these notes meet each other (nodelines). Now assume that we still have different nodes, but they are no longer split in regions. So basically every position in the world is a nodeline (or several nodelines at once). Maybe some major AAA game studios are able to handle this complexity, but I doubt that a team with the resources of SV is able to handle this. Someone like unreal would need to implement such a system into their game engine, making it simple to use.

"The signal in a fiber optic cable from Australia to the US would take about 0.00011 ms. As you can see the main reason for latency between these countries is routing along countless nodes, like this presentation pics of Google demonstrate: "
Right, but doesn't that mean when the public infrastructure would reduce the number of nodes (to let's say only 3 nodes), every player would get a much lower ping, which could also solve these dsync issues?





Touché.



On the picture with the Latency you can see that there is a significant difference between the "PC 30fps" and "PC 60fps". That a computer is able to archive 60 fps in one games does not mean it is able to archive 60fps in all games. It's based on game/engine optimization. Shooters and first person games are usually optimized to archive a much higher frame rate. Some strategy games are even capped at a certain frame rate because it's not needed.




I'm pretty sure every gaming PC computes twice as fast as an Xbox. I'm not saying stadia is not addressing a valid use case. I assume 90% of "casual gamers" playing on Xbox, Playstation, Swtich, or even a toaster. So actually they are adressing a mass marked with 90% of people with low to medium hardware. But I still think they are not able to compete with high end gaming computers. I assume some people (@Speznat ) do have a more expensive computer than car.
i see rhias i press agree, feels like im a robot, notice me senpai

*joke i would never agree with such a no bavrian German Potato ever. PARTY HARD!!
 
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