Mortal Online 2 on Google Stadia

Thread starter #61

Wollkneul

Junior Member
There is no cloud, its just someone else's computer....


what benefit would it have?
I'm dependent on googles plattform. If its slow, I dont get 4k at 144fps
I get an added google ping.

yeah sounds reasonable and nice.
You're lazy.
Why don't you read the original post before asking such questions?
 

Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
You're lazy.
Why don't you read the original post before asking such questions?
because I couldn't find an awnser that made it anyhow interesting to me.
I have the performance under my desk, I have a real nice Ping....
I can't see any benefit from this whole googly stuff... just like a gaming console...
whu, its only one plattform you have to develop your game for.... yeah, if you don't want average PC gamers in your game, thats true.
whu, its more optimized... and you have to pay extra. and its in less high end graphics in the average case.

I think Google is becoming the new Microsoft.
This stuff is a bit like Google+ the MS Zune... Windows Phone... all nice ideas....


If MO2 would come only for that someone elses computer, I would have to say "c ya"
And if not, it would bring at least a bit of overhead, and if its worth that... mh.


Edit: and for all the 5g stuff: rly? 20gbit? you know what 4G is capable of in theory and what you get today? And that 5G makes the same thing even worse? (higher frequency, lower range, more barriers)
 
Thread starter #63

Wollkneul

Junior Member
You completely missed the point in my origjnal post about the main benifit of Stadia and I'm not sure if you did that on purpose? It's not about performance. I elaborated that in other posts in this thread and I'm tired of writing the same things again and again.
 

Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
You completely missed the point in my origjnal post about the main benifit of Stadia and I'm not sure if you did that on purpose? It's not about performance. I elaborated that in other posts in this thread and I'm tired of writing the same things again and again.
From all the things I've read here, I couldn't see your main benefit.
You wrote Latency, which isn't an issue you can't fix without google.
And Development was your second huge Point which will get more complicated, if you want to support the casual PC Plattform also.
 
Thread starter #66

Wollkneul

Junior Member
From all the things I've read here, I couldn't see your main benefit.
You wrote Latency, which isn't an issue you can't fix without google.
And Development was your second huge Point which will get more complicated, if you want to support the casual PC Plattform also.

The classical bottleneck of every online game is the fact, that your bandwidth requirements with every player and object increase exponentially.

Let´s say you have an online game and each player generates data of 1 mb/s.

With 2 players, each player needs to download data about the other player, so it´s for every player 1 mb/s to download and for the server 2 mb/s to upload.

With 10 players, each player needs to download 9 mb/s and the server needs to upload 90 mb/s

With 100 players, each player needs to download 99 mb/s and the server needs to upload 9900 mb/s

Now with Google Stadia, for a stream of 23 mb/s and 100 players, each player needs to download 23mb/s and the server needs to upload 2300 mb/s


And then take into account, that a game world not only has player, but thousands of objects, npcs, etc.

With stadia, the amount of objects, physics, players and so on is just limited by the upload capabilities and processing power of the server.
And these are the best of the world (Every instance on Stadia has more processing power than the current Xbox and PlayStation combined)

Because you don't have that bottleneck anymore it would be possible to implement game logic similiar to single player games. Like having actual items (swords, potions, etc.) with physical properties, physical accurate destruction of environments, shopping trees down and so on and so on.

This is not possible with the current way of handling data packages and never will because of the exponential growth of required data.

It basically means a completely and never before seen online world
 

Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
Because you don't have that bottleneck anymore it would be possible to implement game logic similiar to single player games. Like having actual items (swords, potions, etc.) with physical properties, physical accurate destruction of environments, shopping trees down and so on and so on.

This is not possible with the current way of handling data packages and never will because of the exponential growth of required data.

It basically means a completely and never before seen online world
That would only be, if you wouldn't let other plattforms like the PC play with the stadia players. And even then, its not that easy as you think.
Google would still need nodes all around the globe for the different players, which would make the same amount of upload for the meta data.
And in addition to that, every single player would cause a massive downstream from the google nodes for the stream.
Since even with steam inhome streaming its not perfect via 1gbit of Cat6 to stream 4k without latency or artifacts... I don't think google will do that so much more efficient.

In addition to that, I read its only coming to some Countries. What do you do if your country isnt supported? you couldnt play the game you love because google says no? I dont like that idea.
 
Thread starter #68

Wollkneul

Junior Member
I don't understand what you mean by meta data.

I highly suggest you take your time and read through the whole thread.
Everything you wrote was already discussed and cleared.
 

Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
I don't understand what you mean by meta data.

I highly suggest you take your time and read through the whole thread.
Everything you wrote was already discussed and cleared.
You just said "the stadia server and client is a cluster inside the stadia network" that may be true, but if you use it like that, you would not have the possibility to allow normal PC players as clients.
And even then... Even Facebook has problems to sync everything inside their cluster. If you want that in nearly real time...
The syncing is not done with the ping between the server nodes. They have to process the data, clarify wich data is the newest and stuff like that.
If you only have one server, thats all on one maschine wich can do everything inside.

But just imagine what kind of bandwith you need to play that on 4k and 144fps... According to google you need 35mbit/s for 4k on 60fps
so you need about 70 mbit? What if two people in your house want to play at the same time? 140 mbit only for a game that could be happy with 2mbit for all the meta data?

(by meta data i mean all the stuff you send from your client to the server and back in a normal client-server system... position of things, actions and all that)

You haven't made an awnser to all these problems. You just said "read the stuff from google"
I'm not sure what your Background is, if you have studied CS or something like that, or if you are an IT guy.. but I think you haven't made your own thoughts on these google presentations.
In a world of 10gbit low latency internet this all would be nice and fine.
But this is a world with people that have only 2mbit.

Googles Idea of Google fiber was also nice. But it turned out to be crap. They stopped that project when they saw that it isn't that easy as they thought.

Also to the sea cables: its not relevant how much miles of cable you have, its relevant which kind of Lasers and sensors you have. You can have 1gbit/s fiber on the same cable where you could have 10 Tbit/s and even way more.
 
I’d say just hold off on buying into the Google Stadia, for now. Wait for it to release, see how it performs in the real world and watch exhaustive amounts of reviews by ordinary everyday gamers like you and me, and then decide whether or not to jump on the bandwagon.
 
Thread starter #71

Wollkneul

Junior Member
You just said "the stadia server and client is a cluster inside the stadia network" that may be true, but if you use it like that, you would not have the possibility to allow normal PC players as clients.

...

You haven't made an awnser to all these problems. You just said "read the stuff from google"

.

You can play Stadia in a browser, which you would know if you would have watched the presentation from Google.
I never said read the stuff from Google - I said you should read my arguments and explanations in this thread.

And even then... Even Facebook has problems to sync everything inside their cluster. If you want that in nearly real time...
.
Where did you get that from?

The syncing is not done with the ping between the server nodes. They have to process the data, clarify wich data is the newest and stuff like that.
If you only have one server, thats all on one maschine wich can do everything inside.

...

Also to the sea cables: its not relevant how much miles of cable you have, its relevant which kind of Lasers and sensors you have. You can have 1gbit/s fiber on the same cable where you could have 10 Tbit/s and even way more.

.
Your point is:
The Stadia servers around the world would have to update the game state (what you call meta data. Stop doing that, meta data means data about data) in real time. You are afraid that the processing power of them and the bandwidth between them might not be sufficient.

Regarding processing power: They can update the game state nearly instantly. That's the job of cloud computing.

Regarding bandwidth:


"
In financing its own cable, instead of purchasing capacity on an existing one or building with a consortium, Google has full control of routing and guaranteed bandwidth. This trans-Atlantic cable will transmit 250 Terabits of data per second thanks to space-division multiplexing (SDM). That record-breaking capacity is equivalent to transmitting the entire digitized Library of Congress three times every second."


https://9to5google.com/2019/04/05/google-dunant-undersea-fiber-cable/



But just imagine what kind of bandwith you need to play that on 4k and 144fps... According to google you need 35mbit/s for 4k on 60fps
so you need about 70 mbit?

.
No, you need exactly 35mbit/s.
And I get the creeps, because I sense what you might be actually thinking. That you need 35mbit/s to download the data and 35mbit/s to upload the data. I hope I'm wrong
 

Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
You can play Stadia in a browser, which you would know if you would have watched the presentation from Google.
I never said read the stuff from Google - I said you should read my arguments and explanations in this thread.
but what If I don't want to pay google? I have a pc capable of playing games, why should I buy two abos for one game?

Where did you get that from?
sorry I have to look up where I got that from. Read that a year ago or even before, in an article describing all the problems they have and all the technologies they use and stuff like that.

Your point is:
The Stadia servers around the world would have to update the game state (what you call meta data. Stop doing that, meta data means data about data) in real time. You are afraid that the processing power of them and the bandwidth between them might not be sufficient.

Regarding processing power: They can update the game state nearly instantly. That's the job of cloud computing.

Regarding bandwidth:


"
In financing its own cable, instead of purchasing capacity on an existing one or building with a consortium, Google has full control of routing and guaranteed bandwidth. This trans-Atlantic cable will transmit 250 Terabits of data per second thanks to space-division multiplexing (SDM). That record-breaking capacity is equivalent to transmitting the entire digitized Library of Congress three times every second."


https://9to5google.com/2019/04/05/google-dunant-undersea-fiber-cable/
Then lets give it the short name "data to update the game state"
It's still several packets, all with small data and large overhead. It't not that I think the processing power is not enough to handle it. But even getting a Data packet from the network card into the CPU takes a lot of time.

but in that data Stream is all other stuff from google, also. But hey okay, let them be fast between their own nodes, its still a server communicating with other instances of the server around the globe to keep the time as short as possible.


No, you need exactly 35mbit/s.
And I get the creeps, because I sense what you might be actually thinking. That you need 35mbit/s to download the data and 35mbit/s to upload the data. I hope I'm wrong
I don't know how the double data can take the same Bandwith.
35mbit/s for 4k 60fps (60 Pictures per second)
how can 144 Pictures per second be EXACTLY the same size?
Lets say its not double the bandwith you need, because of good compression, but it will definitly take more than 60 frames.
And if you now say "no one needs 144 frames" ask all fps shooter players, or try a monitor with more than 60Hz. Its a huge difference.
 

Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
I’d say just hold off on buying into the Google Stadia, for now. Wait for it to release, see how it performs in the real world and watch exhaustive amounts of reviews by ordinary everyday gamers like you and me, and then decide whether or not to jump on the bandwagon.
Yep.
Lets wait until this technology has proven itself.
 

Gigamo

Arena Champion
Yeah, it's not like Google already controls a vast amount of aspects of many people's lives. Sounds like a brilliant idea to have them become the (sole) gatekeeper of your games too.

While cool and fancy, I personally don't think (hope) this sort of technology has a future or that it at the very least won't become the only way to play.
 
Thread starter #75

Wollkneul

Junior Member
I overread the 144fps, sorry of that. Yeah you would need double the data for that. You are right.

What I really don't understand from all you people complaining about missing precision and latency...

Mortal does the best job of all MMOs regarding what it does, but it's still a piece of shit if you look what it actually does compared to regular Multiplayer games:



You can see two players fighting and one of them moves left and right abecause the server has to update his current position all the time.
It's nothing but precise. This game is nothing but precise

It's total garbage and this is not Star Vaults fault. It will always be total garbage, because it's mathematically impossible to get a linear growth of bandwidth and therefore a stable experience with increasing players. That's why most MMOs have instances since over 20 years and never really improved. A MMO today can't do more than a MMO 20 years ago. That's why they all have the same game mechanics. That's why they never have really improved. That's why they are all the same.
Again: it's impossible

With this current tech you will never ever get fluid gameplay like in a single player game, or well coded multiplayer shooter.

So what the fuck is everybody arguing about?
It's like somebody driving a shitty car, that pollutes it's environment and breaks apart any moment, making fun of a newer, cleaner electric car, because it doesn't drive so far. But this guy is driving a very short distance and doesn't need his 800km.

That's you
This game has permanent ruberbanding and synchronization issues, but you want 144fps.
So you can see people popping in and out of existence and gliding left and right in high definition?
You complain about the fact that the server takes time to process the data and are completely ignorant, that your very own machine does the very exact same thing, but much much slower.
You complain about the fact, that a couple of servers have to update the game state in real time over high speed cables with each other but are ignorant for the fact, that the current server has to update this game state with thousands of player in real time.

The truth is, most people just love to complain and don't know shit about how to solve things. You can give them the solution to all their problems and they will still imagine a couple of reasons why it's the worse idea ever.
 
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Azachiel

Cronite Supporter
I have to say, I don't have the Issues you complain about.
I don't have that huge problems, the game runs fast, most of the time everything runs quite smooth. (when I run like 4 clients on the same maschine on the same time, then i get the problems like bad forecasts and lags and everything.)

For me it's like I drive in my normal everday car and you show me autonomus carsharing service.
I want a car thats mine, where I can leave some stuff in it when I park it.
I want to drive, not be driven.
The stadia architecture is something completly different and the same at the same time.
And for me, it seems I get less, and have to pay more.

But let google develop stadia, and let them handle the first problems they will have. maybe in the far future it could be nice.
 
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