Tutorial Island Poll

Should PvP be allowed on Tutorial Island


  • Total voters
    39
THIS is an egregious ( 'terribad') Strawman Argument which you are making against whatever it is that Star Vault is doing with the Tutorial Island Yet To Come, also known as Haven, AS IF you have a better idea of what they are going to make of it than we do. And, you don't.
"sv's gone overboard with the tutorial island..."​
-- @barcode

The rest is just your wishlist, which is just all right, I guess. It didn't need the preface you gave it.

You seem to be basing your criticism of SV on what's in other people's wishlists. GG, no deal, no re.
One of the main reasons for SV making the newbie island was because many people, as I recall, have been asking for it. It was repeatedly suggested, and much support was given to it.

Now that SV is working on the exact thing that was suggested, I don’t get why suddenly there is a backlash against it? Seems like a case of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
 

Yeonan

Trial Member
One of the main reasons for SV making the newbie island was because many people, as I recall, have been asking for it. It was repeatedly suggested, and much support was given to it.

Now that SV is working on the exact thing that was suggested, I don’t get why suddenly there is a backlash against it? Seems like a case of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
timing is everything

before the MO2 announcement yeah noob island made all the sense in the world, right now it feels like they are building a door to a house that has a crumbling foundation.
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
the game is not designed correctly
We've all known this for years. This whole starter island probably could have been avoided if they didnt force new players into two major cities to be butchered with the Steam release. Literally braindead decision making.
 

a.out

Senior Member
This even still a thing ? Who's got the time while working on a quintillion other games, including MO 2 ?
 

Dalacor

Senior Member
One of the main reasons for SV making the newbie island was because many people, as I recall, have been asking for it. It was repeatedly suggested, and much support was given to it.

Now that SV is working on the exact thing that was suggested, I don’t get why suddenly there is a backlash against it? Seems like a case of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
Its pretty simple. When the game had players SV announced in late 2014 it was greenlit on steam. At that point all of us were super excited but
said the new player experience needed rework and actually the idea of newbie island was floated by me(and likely others). The backlash is that its the middle of 2019 and the game has an average of 30 individual players online. Fair backlash I think.
 

Dalacor

Senior Member
Yeah guys great idea. Allow PvP on the TUTORIAL ISLAND so that people that don't care about the games health can camp the gates and we can have another Steam launch. No wonder this game has gotten nowhere...the community is as disconnected as the developers.

I did suggest that once the Tutorial Island has been out for a bit and its clear the island hasn't brought it any new players, we could just activate PvP until MO2. Wanting to have PvP from day one though is just stupid and defeats the purpose.
Consensual PVP with no loss of gear is what is needed. Where a new player can practice, figure things out but not get demotivated. They could also consider a ban on any accounts created pre release of the island being allowed on it but that may just make it a ghost town.
 
One of the main reasons for SV making the newbie island was because many people, as I recall, have been asking for it. It was repeatedly suggested, and much support was given to it.

Now that SV is working on the exact thing that was suggested, I don’t get why suddenly there is a backlash against it? Seems like a case of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
Starvault kinda kill it... by announcing Newb Island... Taking too much time and finally announce MO2 ? And not saying what is the intention behind it. That if they gonna use Newb Island "tutorial" for MO2. What gonna happen to Myrland? There gonna be a new map for MO2? we dont really know what is going on in Starvault Office.

If they are working on newb island just for MO.. well there is no point really... the end game is bad anyways.. TC... Guards... too much thing is fukt... Too much carebear NPC pet..... the Balance PvE and PvP wise is totally fukt.


What was making MO fun is pre-awakening when group fight on foot was happening everyday. When the game was more Skill Based and not base on Grinding Necromancy/Elementalist scroll @1buttonkill. People was having fun. Personnally i had a lot of fun pre-necromancy even if we had to deal with Mounted.

I dont see the fun in MO right now... There is too much Cheese mechanic that u can use... u dont really need to fight or use your ability to be dominant actually. not giving a fight to your ennemy, playing defensive and simply Ninja siege them all the time is probably the best WAR strategy right now. So your ennemy just quit the game because its not fun.

MO is done... lets just pass to something else. The best that could happen to MO... is to leave it to the communauty,if people can build Mods and Server...to make MO great again.(that would never happen )

PS: its just my own opinion
 

MolagAmur

Well-Known Member
Consensual PVP with no loss of gear is what is needed. Where a new player can practice, figure things out but not get demotivated. They could also consider a ban on any accounts created pre release of the island being allowed on it but that may just make it a ghost town.
Yeah /dueling could work. Idk, I like the idea of new players being able to test out combat...its just hard to think of a good way to do it.

Actually, that could put that big arena on there that they have on Myrland. But yeah, no looting.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Let's quote SV on some very skimpy yet basic facts, because I don't understand the kind of confusion of already stated ideas that could result in statements like these:
And not saying what is the intention behind it. That if they gonna use Newb Island "tutorial" for MO2. What gonna happen to Myrland? There gonna be a new map for MO2? we dont really know what is going on in Starvault Office.
Last thing first, we don't really know what's going on in Star Vault's offices -aside- from what they tell us. It isn't much, but here's the deal:
This is the starter island that will be released for Mortal Online that you are playing today.
Also, via the Starter Island video discussion
The starter island will have far from everything when it comes to books/materials/Ai, but it will be a great place to have fun exploring while skilling up your basic skills and learning the game.
What's going to happen to Myrland, then, is that it's going to continue to be a place to find *all* the books and materials and NPCs and MOBs (except those you'd have to go to Sarducaa for, but pfft, who does that?)
(About Haven, the Newb Island for Mortal Online, presented as a list: )
  • It will be a proper starting experience

  • able to support a lot of new players flooding the location. ...(I)t's quite large, not Myrland size however.

  • ...there can be multiple noob islands

  • this is the base for MO2 noob island as well.

  • it will look different in MO2 as we will use the new engine and newer models
Haven's not going to be as big as Myrland, and doesn't need to be; if one Haven gets crowded, they plan on being able to add more Havens. If you're worried that Haven will replace Myrland, don't be; a reasonable conclusion from the above is that it can't, and won't.

More, edited with spacing and emphasis added:
"...[T]echnology has moved on and the time has come to upgrade to UE4, with...​
  • much improved graphics,
  • ... VR compatibility
  • and many other advanced features."
"Doing this will create what is in part a new game."​
(None of that specifically mentions a new map.)
"And this makes this a good time to restate our vision for what we want Mortal to be."​
"We plan to create another world, for adventure and living another life. That this world will be internally consistent and logical, "realistic"..."​
(Note well that he is the one who put "realistic" in quotes.)
"There will be full pvp and full loot."​
(Note that he doesn't say 'everywhere', but doesn't say 'no safe zones', either.)
"But this is not because we are creating a combat simulator. This is a reasonable part of the life of the world and we do not plan for pvp to be all or even the most important part of what the game has to offer."​
"We plan to make the game world much larger than it was before..."​
(Because <reasons>. See his original post for more. Note well that this could mean simply adding more of the always-proposed other continents; it says nothing specific about 'new maps'. )
"...(I)t is not enough that justice be done, it must be seen to be done. We plan to name and shame banned characters to improve confidence."​
(Note that this only mentions characters and not usernames of accounts.)
"We will not allow any element of "pay to win" to enter our game."​
"Wherever possible we will maintain the rules of the game unchanged, adding content and improvements but letting balance be decided in game. People who succeed will be allowed the fruits of their success."​
"Similarly this is not an entirely new game and people who achieved wealth and success in Mortal will find that transferred to the new game in a new form."​
(When you think about it, Henrik isn't very specific. He doesn't say what new form wealth and success from MO1 would take in MO 2. No use getting your Y-fronts wedgied until you know what this means and how it will work. Keep Calm & Make Suggestions while you're not yet stuck with Henrik's decisions on the matter.)
"Similarly people who paid for lifetime subscriptions to Mortal will see them continue with its successor."​
"We would like to restrict all players to one character and one account. We originally wanted to do that, and we will look again into whether this can be done in the new game. We feel that multiple characters are a version of pay to win and hope to be able to do away with it..."​
(Finally, one Deva per account :grin:. Not sure SV can keep people from renting multiple accounts, but that's a worry I'm sure they'd like to have if the situation arises. One character per account is officially part of The Vision, now.)
"Similarly we will remove the free to play element from Mortal 2.​
This involved rework of our skill system to fit one (character) per account."​
"We plan to publish more [lore] and make sure that it is reflected in the layout and nature of the world. ...(I)t is the core of what the world is and why things are as they are."​
"There will be patches added to MO as we play it today which will move over to MO2 as well."​
(This, according to other statements from SV quoted in this post, would obviously include Haven the Newb Island and means hypothetically you're going to see some other new things in Mortal Online before it ends.)

"[W]e will continue to support MO until MO2 goes live."​

-- Henrik Nyström via​

----
Seb expanded on some of this in a way:
(Spacing and emphasis added.)
"We have NO plans on shutting down MO once we release MO2. We will just keep servers running at that point the two games will be vastly different..."

"...since early MO2 will only contain a basic set of features."

"[(S)ince early MO2 will only contain a basic set of features,]...we plan to then re-add and build upon the game adding features one by one from MO to MO2. It will take a while...

"...[A] while... to implement the now massive amount of features that MO2 has. This means that for a long time MO will have a LOT more features while MO2 sticks to the core while we build it up again."

(Translation: You're not going to want to leave MO1 right away unless you only like incomplete versions of Mortal Online 2-- which ideally will not persist, so don't get attached to it. It's not slated to be any kind of permanent return to the 'good old days'. If that's all you really want, then -yeah- move on.)

"Re-adding features will be quicker than the first time we did this..." (and he gives a list of reasons why; see original) "...and we have more programmers but it will take time."

(More programmers we haven't met yet. I wonder if or when we will?)

This leaves plenty of questions, but not (I hope) too many about "¿What is Star Vault saying???OMGwtfBBQ1!? they're not telling us anything!"
 
One of the main reasons for SV making the newbie island was because many people, as I recall, have been asking for it. It was repeatedly suggested, and much support was given to it.

Now that SV is working on the exact thing that was suggested, I don’t get why suddenly there is a backlash against it? Seems like a case of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
I know right? MO community flips more than a poop pancake. The only real explanation is that most of the community (or the ones still playing) have a strong lack of perspective and a severe case of ADD.

And the other problem, regarding development is that when SV decided to listen to "certain" community advices the game was already dead.

What it is criticizable is that a newbie island is being made when theres nobody playing, no player injection, no plan, no nothing (that we know of) yet you can be quite sure that under the development and further release of the newbie island there will be no other mechanics nor strategies to support such course of action regarding development, as it has been with most of the content over the years, a futile effort to create something that is missunderstood, missguided, underdeveloped and very much meaningless.

Nobody can't really be against the creation of a newbie island if you know how broken the flag system is, how murdercounts work, how much of a ghetto the starter towns are, not to mention tutorial or the learning curve, etc.
People is pissed because the newbie island is going to be another empty place in the game and most likely poorly designed that will serve no purpose except maybe hardcore exploits that will be fixed in months or years. People is pissed because it takes SV a year to make a newbie island that won't be used like the rest of the pilled up placeholder' content ingame.

PS: According to MO fanbois, by now, with SV's money injection 70% of MO2 is already made and will be released in 2 months. That if you believe they hired capable people to make the game, and they have been secretly making MO2 while henrik's dog is coding the newbie island.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
Please tell me you don't have a source for that. Please tell me you made it up to be funny. Please tell me no-one really believes it.


MO2 tutorial island gonna spawn you with a golden shovel and a poop-cart, so you can 'shovel yourself out of the shit'.




Im sure there is lots psychotic wishy thinkers making up stories of how far developed MO2 is.
(But yes, some peeps told me a few months back that by now MO2 was going to be out)​
 
What was making MO fun is pre-awakening when group fight on foot was happening everyday.
It was only fun for dedicated PvPers. PvP trumps all other activities in MO which means it is not a sandbox. That is fine, but MO needs to be designed as a PvP-only game without all the time-consuming, non-PvP hoops. Then you will attract more dedicated PvPers and improve retention.
 
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Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
It was only fun for dedicated PvPers. PvP trumps all over activities in MO which means it is not a sandbox. That is fine, but MO needs to be designed as a PvP-only game without all the time-consuming, non-PvP hoops. Then you will attract more dedicated PvPers and improve retention.
That is true, and "needs to be designed as a PvP-only game" would make fine advice if not for announcements to the contrary, but we have a recent restatement of The Vision for Mortal Online (1, 2...) from @Henrik Nystrom that is quite clearly not 'all that' at https://www.starvault.se/mortalforums/threads/mortal-online-2.126093/ . Pretty much the opposite, in fact. Is it Vapor-Vision, or is it the Real Deal?

If we can't take a Vision / Mission statement from the CEO seriously, what are *any* of us doing here? It's a struggle, but I'd rather believe him if it's at all possible. If we can't, then it's boggling how stubborn he's been about some things he's stuck to all along (e.g., the Flagging System).

In Any Case: Either this game, any version, will have to change in order to be that PvP-only game that some want (the one "without all the time-consuming, non-PvP hoops"), or people who want a PvP-only Mortal (game) will have to go play Mortal Royale. Or something. For ten years or so MO has tried to be all envisioned things to all its players, and the results are mass losses of paying / donating supporters who were assets to the community while they lasted.


In places besides these forums I find that Mortal Online is often referred to as a gankbox. The word for the sad fact is growing on me-- I don't like the fact that a gankbox is all it is, but 'sandbox' doesn't suit it.
 
@Najwalaylah

What is this about the flagging system? Is he happy with how it works currently?

I just read that statement of his that you mentioned. It is impossible to enforce "one character per player". You need to design around multiple characters.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
@Najwalaylah

What is this about the flagging system? Is he happy with how it works currently?
I don't presume to say he likes, or dislikes, how it works, but some kind of flagging is a non-negotiable part of Mortal Online, 'cause Henrik Said.

It only comes up because many, including me, over the years have suggested that there be no flagging. There will... not... be... no... flagging.
(Counted twice. Double negative, means: "yes, there will be".)
 
@Najwalaylah

What would be the benefit of no flagging?

Perhaps no flagging would be workable if the game prevents a population split between dedicated PvPers and everyone else in the first place. Success in a true sandbox should come from building a faction that integrates both.
 
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Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
What would be the benefit...
"What would be the benefit of no flagging?

Perhaps no flagging would be workable if the game prevents a population split between dedicated PvPers and everyone else in the first place. Success in true sandbox should come from building a faction that integrates both."​
There were many and different reasons brought up, why no-flagging would be of benefit or better than flagging-- some of them overlapping or redundant or even trivial:

Apparently, the Flagging System in MO was wanted by Henrik because UO (Ultima Online) had one. But MO didn't get the same one, and in the ways that it was different, the one Mortal Online *got* was worse. That Henrik didn't seem to have a better rationale for the one he chose made accepting it difficult, I suppose.


Five murders to go red means four "free". This is one of the ways MO's MCs (Murder Counts) were different from UO (apparently; I never really got too far into trying UO), and this didn't suit a lot of people, even those who themselves were nostalgic for UO.

Not That Anyone Cares: Other games get by or got by without it.

Some people, not few, have suggested that flagging should take place according to one of several systems those with local control of a territory could specify, not by some arbitrary continental (and later, intercontinental) fiat.

Once you go Red, you have to burn MCs online, if you want to go back to Blue (incidentally, killing the planet just that little bit faster with eight hours of computer uptime, ostensibly when you would otherwise be offline). Lots of people hate this, and yet...

Lots of people just stay Red (because of the hassle; Cyde once calculated the time he'd have to burn MCs for in years(!)), and killing everything that moves becomes a matter of "Oh, why not? I'm Red now", for some of them. So *they* say.

It is or was too easy to go Red in battles that involved nothing we usually think of as "murder", as members of the military in my first guild in this game and many other players could attest.

Meanwhile, Blues had their methods, back in the days, of getting away with murder, which relates to the 'four free murders' item, but also to how blue-blocking used to be so very easy. There's been a sort of fix for that, but not everyone has liked it.

Trivially, colour-flagging was an unreliable indicator. Not all Reds are your enemies. Not all Blues are your friends. (But most of us knew that, already.)

The system was mostly a joke, as the 'punishment factor' of being Red is easily ameliorated / overcome:
  • Guild priests will resurrect Reds, guild merchants will sell to them, certain guild guards won't attack them, and guild members will stat them back up quickly after stat loss. If all else fails, they have F2P alts to help them. All in all, Red consequences are not really a deterrent to murders, and all the Reds left in the game don't sound convincing when they try to say otherwise. At the same time, despite many years of suggestions, there are few or no tangible rewards for remaining Blue.
  • Reds are i.e. able to ride right into places like Tindrem (which apparently was planned this way) and, due to poor guard AI & imbalance at various times, be ignored / never caught / resistant enough to guard attacks to survive riding around the Plaza and the Gardens wreaking havoc with reckless abandon. I have to call this a valid complaint since I've seen it happen.
I'm sure there are more I haven't listed but those are just off the top of my head.
 
@Najwalaylah

A fit-for-purpose sandbox flagging system would accrue the penalties not only to the perpetrator but also to their political faction/leader... if they do not enforce some sort of restitution to the victim. Once again, this is something that needs to be supported with in-game mechanics.

Murder is only murder if you do not pay the fine.

That leaves open the question of what the drawbacks are for the political faction if they do not enforce laws. Hence the requirement for a total redesign if you intend to build a true sandbox.

Of course, if MO is simply a PvP game there probably is no need for a flagging system, because PvP is the norm.
 

Najwalaylah

Exalted Member
The OP did a lot of good if it prompted these answers:

Q: How will the flagging system work on the Island?​
A: You will be yellow flagged (Safe from being attacked by other players) during your whole stay on the Island.​
However, we will add the option to drop your yellow flag and go blue, but once you drop it, you can't get it back, so we will make it very clear and​
advice players to NOT do this unless they 100% certain they know what they are doing. (So they can't be tricked into doing this.)​
We feel that turning off the yellow flag will be a great way to let our current veteran player base also enjoy the Island, and play it​
side by side with our new players who can watch and learn from the veterans as they engage in PvP with eachother.​
==​
Q: Will there be a way to try PvP without dropping your yellow flag?​
A: Yes, there will be the duel mechanic that we have today, and also an underground arena where everyone who enters will be grey flagged,​
and you can attack and get attacked by anyone without risking murdercounts.​
This arena will have an instanced door that requires that you to talk to an NPC that explains the dangers to you before he opens the door,​
so you can't enter it by mistake.​
==​
Q: When you decide to leave the island, is there no going back?​
A: Once you leave, you can never go back.​
==​
Q: Can already existing characters travel to the island?​
A: Existing characters can not travel to the Island.​
--Herius, via​

This is not content.
It is impossible to enforce "one character per player". You need to design around multiple characters.
If you are SV and you want to be paid by your players for the sake of your stockholders, you design your next game with no F2P -and- if you get paid twice by the same player for separate accounts, you shut up and take the money.
 
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